Paid pilots safer?

Topper

Topper

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Topper
As I look over accidents, it appears that paid pilots are safer. Specifically they are seem to be lees accidents on flights the pilot is paid to fly. The major carriers have a pretty good record. I don't hear of many accidents or gear up landings in corporate jets or big twins or expensive turbo props. When accidents involving those planes happen, I assume a the percentage of owner flown planes with incidents is higher than the percentage paid pilot flown similar planes.

I am always amazed when I read about an accident involving an ATP with a private or commercial pilot in the right seat and something dumb being done. It seems that the vast majority of the time, it happens when the pilot is not being compensated for the flight.

What is my point? Assuming what I stated above is generally correct, what changes when someone is being paid to fly? How can we as non compensated pilots approach flying like a compensated pilot and become safer?

I assume part of it has to do with being able to dedicate 100% attention to the job of flying. Paid pilots most likely get more recurrent training. I had a 210 nm trip on Thursday. The plan was to leave at 11:30 and be back by 6:00, we only needed a couple of hours at the destination. I have a 15 minute meeting at 10:15. It ran late and instead of being at the airport at 11:00 to preflight and fuel, it was 11:30. I obviously delayed departing till I was ready, but I rushed more than I should have. A paid pilot would not have had a 10:15 meeting and would have been rushed. I guess in this case I should have acted like a paid pilot and not had such a tight schedule. The flight was a last minute decision (the night before - I had plenty of time to plan the flight). I had already cancelled the meeting once and it involved several departments with the city. In hindsight, I should have cancelled the meeting meeting or made arrangements that allowed a later return.

Just curious what specific actions others think that paid pilots take that make them safer. And if you think I am full of it, let me know that also, maybe my assumptions are wrong.

Thanks for your input,

Jim
 
My guess is it would have something to do with if someone is flying part 121 or 135(paid pilots flying to be paid) the company has set protocols for everything and many times their is a second set of eyes(SIC). In part 91, I would bet a lot of the time the checklists are forgotten, and the SIC is either an empty seat, or a non-pilot.
 
I'm not really sure about paid pilots being safer. Every airline crash I've ever heard of had a paid pilot flying it.
 
I took him to be meaning the GA accident rate versus the non GA accident rate.
 
Anymouse said:
I'm not really sure about paid pilots being safer. Every airline crash I've ever heard of had a paid pilot flying it.
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True, but the number of airline crashes is very low compared to the number of ga accidents. I am guessing the vast majority of ga accidents are by pilots not being paid to fly.
 
I think it comes down to profieciency. Paid pilots fly multiple times a week if not multiple times a day. They have thorough checklists in place and their airplanes are maintained by a staff of mechanics.

In comparison the average GA pilot flies once a week maybe less, maybe more. They have some loose checklists, and only take their plane to a shop when a noticeable problem arises or its due for an annual.
 
Seanaldinho said:
I think it comes down to profieciency. Paid pilots fly multiple times a week if not multiple times a day. They have thorough checklists in place and their airplanes are maintained by a staff of mechanics.

In comparison the average GA pilot flies once a week maybe less, maybe more. They have some loose checklists, and only take their plane to a shop when a noticeable problem arises or its due for an annual.
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No doubt that accounts for some of it, but the few professional pilots I know that fly for small corporations may only fly a couple of times a month.
 
Seanaldinho said:
I think it comes down to profieciency. Paid pilots fly multiple times a week if not multiple times a day. They have thorough checklists in place and their airplanes are maintained by a staff of mechanics.
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I think you're making some generalizations that aren't necessarily true. Most of the planes that I flew as a professional pilot were significantly worse off than the planes that I myself was in charge of maintaining - that included the ones on 135. Checklists? Sure, for part 135 we had them, but my boss always got angry with me for actually trying to use them.

The issue of proficiency is often true, though, and I think accounts for most of whatever safety benefit there is. When I was a professional pilot, I was flying in the 400-600 hour per year range. We'll see what it comes down to now, but my guess is that if we do 150 hours this year, that will be a high number. I do feel a bit rusty vs. how I was when I was flying more regularly. On the other hand, I'm flying one and only one airplane that I know very well, instead of closer to 10 airplanes that are all very different.

Then you've got the professional pilots who rarely fly for the boss, but need to be available 24/7 so they can't fly for anyone else to keep the skill levels up.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Sorry to hear that. It shouldn't be that way. We use a checklist on every leg.
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Your boss is probably better than mine was. My point was that the assumptions made are not always true.
 
douglas393 said:
I took him to be meaning the GA accident rate versus the non GA accident rate.
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Topper said:
True, but the number of airline crashes is very low compared to the number of ga accidents. I am guessing the vast majority of ga accidents are by pilots not being paid to fly.
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It was a JOKE people!!!


:D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Your boss is probably better than mine was. My point was that the assumptions made are not always true.
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What was the boss' rationale for not using the checklist, one of the most universally accepted safety enhancements known to aviation, as well as being encouraged by the FAA and CFIs?
 
Not talking airlines, but paid pilots also get rushed, the bosses want them to stay on schedule as close to possible.
 
It all comes down to practice, and devotion to the task.

Paid, professional drywallers are better at it than I am, too.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
What was the boss' rationale for not using the checklist, one of the most universally accepted safety enhancements known to aviation, as well as being encouraged by the FAA and CFIs?
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"I don't need no stinkin' checklist."

Now, I'm not a universal believer in checklists, but in a 2-pilot 135 environment, there's really not reason not to use one, especially when we had it and it was a good one.
 
The Kings commented on this in at least one of their videos. They focused more on the risk-evaluating and decision-making aspects of it, and I think that's where the difference is. It's not that the paid pilots are more proficient or skillful; tt seems that the paid pilots are less risk-tolerant and less likely to compromise their personal minimums.
Therefore I think that for those of us who fly for fun (not to say commercial pilots don't enjoy flying), perhaps our emotions inflence our decision-making more than we are consciously aware.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
"I don't need no stinkin' checklist."

Now, I'm not a universal believer in checklists, but in a 2-pilot 135 environment, there's really not reason not to use one, especially when we had it and it was a good one.
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That's what I expected, usually those guys are quite skilled, with good memory too but, ultimately not infallible.
 
Clearly we should start receiving subsidy checks for every flight we make. Just think how safe we'd all be. Think of the Children.
 
It has to do with the purpose of the flight 121 and 135 guys don't get to crank out moose turns on a whim during work. When they are off work they die the same as hobby pilots.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
What was the boss' rationale for not using the checklist, one of the most universally accepted safety enhancements known to aviation, as well as being encouraged by the FAA and CFIs?
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Not only encouraged, but required (part 135). If our POI was conducting or observing a check airman giving a checkride and the pilot(s) didn't use a checklist, that is an automatic unsatisfactory performance.
 
Here are the scary numbers (page 9 and 10 of Earl Weeners slide set):

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/weener/weener_033012.pdf

There is a problem, and the problem is us.

Yes, the moment people get paid to fly (commercial, instructional and business in these slides), they are a lot safer than the average pilot engaging in 'personal flying'.

One thing I have observed however is that even professional pilots are not immune from getting attacks of stupid the moment they get into a small aircraft and fly on their own time.
 
weilke said:
Here are the scary numbers (page 9 and 10 of Earl Weeners slide set):

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/weener/weener_033012.pdf

There is a problem, and the problem is us.

Yes, the moment people get paid to fly (commercial, instructional and business in these slides), they are a lot safer than the average pilot engaging in 'personal flying'.

One thing I have observed however is that even professional pilots are not immune from getting attacks of stupid the moment they get into a small aircraft and fly on their own time.
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Flying and a fundamental lack of self-discipline is a self correcting problem.
 
The generally vast differences in Comm/Business flying and the more demanding GA and Flight Training realms makes comparisons of the two invalid in many ways.

GA is usually single pilot, the others usually 2 pilots, accepted as safer, they don't even allow single pilot IFR, usually.

Far more options available for the GA pilot to choose from and Flight Training the Tasks per hour are probably among the highest, translating into more risk and higher accident rates, but fatalities not as much.
 
DogDaddy said:
The Kings commented on this in at least one of their videos. They focused more on the risk-evaluating and decision-making aspects of it, and I think that's where the difference is. It's not that the paid pilots are more proficient or skillful; tt seems that the paid pilots are less risk-tolerant and less likely to compromise their personal minimums.
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Bull****.

Personal flying: "I don't like the weather, I'll wait."
Pro flying: "You have an instrument rating don't you? Get in the damn plane."

Variability here of course, but the pro pilots get paid to fly. No fly, no pay.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
The generally vast differences in Comm/Business flying and the more demanding GA and Flight Training realms makes comparisons of the two invalid in many ways.

GA is usually single pilot, the others usually 2 pilots, accepted as safer, they don't even allow single pilot IFR, usually.

Far more options available for the GA pilot to choose from and Flight Training the Tasks per hour are probably among the highest, translating into more risk and higher accident rates, but fatalities not as much.
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Also not necessarily true. I was single pilot IFR legal on the 135 Navajo.
 
Start the discussion with the required amount of experience, training, testing, recurrent training, accountability, standard operating procedures, and other related factors, then ask yourself why the differences might be obvious.

One hour of flight and ground training (often pencil-whipped) every two years for the personal PPL vs four-six full sim training sessions with checkrides and orals to FAA specs during the same time period for the commercial crew and we're wondering if the pilots are better? Really?
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
It is rare, as you well know, and that is why I said "usually".
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It's not rare. I flew a lot of single-pilot 135 in a King Air. I moved on to two-pilot airplanes but they still do a lot of single-pilot in King Airs where I work.
 
Everskyward said:
It's not rare. I flew a lot of single-pilot 135 in a King Air. I moved on to two-pilot airplanes but they still do a lot of single-pilot in King Airs where I work.
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I flew my Citation II as a single pilot, once I got used to it, I didn't particularly like having a co-pilot.:dunno: I think a lot of it depends on what you get used to. ;) I trained and practiced single pilot ops and it was very comfortable for me.:)
 
N747JB said:
I flew my Citation II as a single pilot, once I got used to it, I didn't particularly like having a co-pilot.:dunno: I think a lot of it depends on what you get used to. ;) I trained and practiced single pilot ops and it was very comfortable for me.:)
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I had a hard time adjusting to two-pilot operations, but liked it fine once I got used to it. My boss's issue was that, after 6,000+ hours flying single-pilot, going to a two-pilot operation was simply not going to work for him at all.

Most of it for me has to do with the co-pilot. My co-pilot in the Navajo was excellent, and we had a great CRM. My boss had terrible CRM with anyone, so it didn't work out well.

It is definitely what you know. If I'm flying with someone else I typically won't jump in unless there's good reason to or they ask me to - I don't want to interrupt their way of doing things and risk making things worse rather than better.
 
Everskyward said:
It's not rare. I flew a lot of single-pilot 135 in a King Air. I moved on to two-pilot airplanes but they still do a lot of single-pilot in King Airs where I work.
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Compared to all the airline flights and all other 2 pilot IFR, it is definitely rare.
 
Not rare at all, in fact very common. Work at a training center for a while and you'll know.

Dave Krall CFII said:
Compared to all the airline flights and all other 2 pilot IFR, it is definitely rare.
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wabower said:
Start the discussion with the required amount of experience, training, testing, recurrent training, accountability, standard operating procedures, and other related factors, then ask yourself why the differences might be obvious.

One hour of flight and ground training (often pencil-whipped) every two years for the personal PPL vs four-six full sim training sessions with checkrides and orals to FAA specs during the same time period for the commercial crew and we're wondering if pilots are better? Really?
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Thanks Wayne,

As a private pilot that has not spent a lot of time around paid pilots, I had no idea that paid pilots had that much sim time. The corporate guys I know go at least once a year to sim training, but I did not think it was that much. This is what I what I was trying to get at. If this is what makes the paid guys safer, then it becomes an option to explore. Maybe is not practical for most of us to do multiple sessions in a sim, most of us could dedicate a few hours a year or quarter to training with a cfi. My CFI now has a job running a simulator. He has promised to let me come in on a Saturday for a session. While it will be in a different aircraft and mostly for fun, I am guessing I will come away with some new knowledge.

Jim
 
Everskyward said:
It's not rare. I flew a lot of single-pilot 135 in a King Air. I moved on to two-pilot airplanes but they still do a lot of single-pilot in King Airs where I work.
Click to expand...

wabower said:
Not rare at all, in fact very common. Work at a training center for a while and you'll know.
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What type training center are you referring to?
 
135 crews train on 6-mo intervals. 91 crews are typically required to train annually, mostly for insurance reasons, but some operators adhere to 135 requirements. 91 crews aren't required to pass a check-ride at the conclusion of training, but are required to demonstrate that they have been
"trained to proficiency" during the sim session. But compared to the typical 24-month wink-and-sign routine that many personal pilots obtain, either is like grad school vs 3rd grade.

I'm glad you have the opportunity to train in the sim. You'll learn a lot and be glad you did it. Sim training isn't the end-all to training issues, but it's a much better place to practice emergencies than in the airplane.

Topper said:
Thanks Wayne,

As a private pilot that has not spent a lot of time around paid pilots, I had no idea that paid pilots had that much sim time. The corporate guys I know go at least once a year to sim training, but I did not think it was that much. This is what I what I was trying to get at. If this is what makes the paid guys safer, then it becomes an option to explore. Maybe is not practical for most of us to do multiple sessions in a sim, most of us could dedicate a few hours a year or quarter to training with a cfi. My CFI now has a job running a simulator. He has promised to let me come in on a Saturday for a session. While it will be in a different aircraft and mostly for fun, I am guessing I will come away with some new knowledge.

Jim
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