PA32 crash near IRK - High-timer. ???

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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My speculation: fuel exhaustion/issue and a situation of stalling above the field rather than flying it all the way to the ground.
 
KIRK has one of these every couple of years, I don't know if it is the ILS 36 (not in this case), cheap gas, or just bad luck?

Oh, and that article is just as error ridden as you expect.
 
ja_user said:
KIRK has one of these every couple of years, I don't know if it is the ILS 36 (not in this case), cheap gas, or just bad luck?
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Flightaware track looks like a GPS 18 approach with the plane turning inbound at DELOO. Last recorded return at 1900ft with a 300ft descent and 70kts ground-speed. Nothing unusual about it except that they were planning to go to Quincy and diverted.
 
weilke said:
Flightaware track looks like a GPS 18 approach with the plane turning inbound at DELOO. Last recorded return at 1900ft with a 300ft descent and 70kts ground-speed. Nothing unusual about it except that they were planning to go to Quincy and diverted.
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I agree. Radar doesn't go all the way to the groud though, and that last 1k feet is pretty important. Could be a fuel issue or it could be just another pilot error?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Airlines_Flight_5966
 
ja_user said:
...that article is just as error ridden as you expect.
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Although it IS cool how county officials used reverse 911 to gather information from residents in that area ("did you hear or see anything?") to narrow down the search area and quickly find the crash site. That kind of thing can make the difference between surviving and not, if you were alive after the wreck.

Adair County Sheriff Robert Hardwick said the plane was located after utilizing the emergency contact system at Adair County Central Dispatch to call county residents for any information regarding the crash. He said nearby residents reported hearing loud noises and deputies were able to locate the crash just off a gravel road in the county.

Read more: http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.c...le?AID=/20131106/NEWS/131109307#ixzz2jxmJVgTO
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Though I did not know the pilots involved, a lot of pilots on the Cirrus Owner's site did.

Jim Quinn was apparently a well known and well liked pilot and instructor who was very safety oriented and conservative and who enjoyed sharing his passion.

Ones like this are sobering, leaving the thought, "If it could happen to him...".

Anyway, Jim attempting to bring in a new generation of enthusiasts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yonpUIyAlBw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
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I didn't know Jim personally but I was around him here and there at the flight school. He was clearly a kind man who loved teaching aviation. Sad loss.
 
FastEddieB said:
Jim Quinn was apparently a well known and well liked pilot and instructor who was very safety oriented and conservative and who enjoyed sharing his passion.

Ones like this are sobering, leaving the thought, "If it could happen to him...".
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And this is why, in the myriad threads about safety, people should reconsider those posts that contain "... I know I'm safe because I always make sure I have enough fuel and yadayadayada..."
 
Ken Ibold said:
And this is why, in the myriad threads about safety, people should reconsider those posts that contain "... I know I'm safe because I always make sure I have enough fuel and yadayadayada..."
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So you either know you're not that good and you're at risk to die, or you continue to think you aren't. And the odds can still get either person.

We've all seen exceptional pilots killed and we've seen dolts killed.

I'm sure if you keep up on training and currency and work hard you can still die doing this stuff. You can make your odds better, but they're still odds.

Too harsh? Too realistic? I dunno.
 
denverpilot said:
So you either know you're not that good and you're at risk to die, or you continue to think you aren't. And the odds can still get either person.

We've all seen exceptional pilots killed and we've seen dolts killed.

I'm sure if you keep up on training and currency and work hard you can still die doing this stuff. You can make your odds better, but they're still odds.

Too harsh? Too realistic? I dunno.
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Everyone is at a 100% risk to die at any given moment. There is no proof that statistical risk of death has any direct corollary to when or why we will individually die. Fatalism is as accurate a philosophy as any other.
 
denverpilot said:
So you either know you're not that good and you're at risk to die, or you continue to think you aren't. And the odds can still get either person.

We've all seen exceptional pilots killed and we've seen dolts killed.

I'm sure if you keep up on training and currency and work hard you can still die doing this stuff. You can make your odds better, but they're still odds.

Too harsh? Too realistic? I dunno.
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What bothers me is when people present a certain smugness that "it can't happen to me because ..."

Yes, we can arm ourselves with skills and tools, but no guarantees.
 
It also may not have been a bad aeronautical decision on behalf of the pilot, it may but we don't know that yet, could have been a medical incapacitation.
 
Sad. Brings home the reality that it can happen to any of us.
 
Ted you are absolutely correct. All of us are just one bad decision from this happening to us. All we can do is train, practice and I think discussing the potential for errors and how to prepare for it helps us all to be better aviators.

Beautiful night flight with AJ last night. Visibility was about a million miles.
 
ACES II ejection seats would be nice, but then would we recognize soon enough that we are out of control.
 
tmyers said:
Ted you are absolutely correct. All of us are just one bad decision from this happening to us. All we can do is train, practice and I think discussing the potential for errors and how to prepare for it helps us all to be better aviators.
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I'd agree. But when we look at accidents and know there's a chain of events, it seems that typically were 3 or more links in the chain of events, some bad decisions and some bad luck. Example:

1) Flight that is on higher end of endurance limit for aircraft
2) Headwinds worse than expected
3) Fail to divert to refuel
4) Crash due to exhaustion

Example 2:

1) Destination airport has tight runway for aircraft capabilities
2) Ice in clouds on approach
3) Snow drifted onto runway due to winds despite previous reports (now hours old) that runway was clean
4) Runway overrun/run off the side due to coming in faster than normal (ice) and slipper conditions (snow)

Alternate 4:

4) Missed approach, divert to other airport, ice up in clouds, crash.

So really, stop the crash at 1 or 2. Both of these are examples of situations where I changed the course at 2, because I saw the potential for 3 and 4. So I diverted, had a safe landing.
 
Ken Ibold said:
What bothers me is when people present a certain smugness that "it can't happen to me because ..."

Yes, we can arm ourselves with skills and tools, but no guarantees.
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I agree but I've seen those people die in airplanes and I've seen the very humble and hard workers on their skills die in airplanes.

About the only difference seems to be how annoying one or the other is.

Sparky Imeson is as dead as the guy who says he knows it all and has oodles of unsafe attitudes. Just as one example. (RIP Sparky. Sorry to borrow your good name to make a point but I don't think you'd mind.)
 
Very true about the chain of events. When flying to 6Y9 last August we were detained in Janeville WI waiting out a storm. We left for 6Y9 about an hour before night fall for an hour and 30 minute flight.

1. About 20 minutes out we had to duck under a thin overcast layer at about 3500 msl.
2. Called ahead to 6y9 to announce we would fly over head in about 10 minutes and then head to Land of Lakes.
3. Within a couple minutes I noticed that I had lost all ground reference except the occasional porch light. (thought to myself this is the stuff that killed JFK)
4. Said to myself this isn't good, then glanced down and saw a patch of fog on the ground at one of the afore mentioned porch lights.

At item 3 I had convinced myself that heading to 6Y9 was a bad idea even if just to fly over head. When item 4 cropped up told my pax (wife) we are heading directly to Land of Lakes.

Learned a long time ago from a very wise pilot that you will never outrun fog.

Had a great evening at Land Of Lakes and had a very nice dinner there. We flew to 6Y9 after the fog lifted the next morning.

The urge to continue on was strong because I had already announced I would.

Making the right decision is sometimes hard, but always right.
 
This probably brings up something that, as pilots, we should be talking about more to help decision making.

We all talk about that guy who made an NTSB report out of himself and what we would have done differently, but I think it's easy to say that and remove yourself from the reality of being in the situation. We also sometimes talk about dumb decisions and what we learned, but what about when we used good ADM and broke the chain? The stories aren't as entertaining, but they are probably more useful, especially to the student reading along.
 
tmyers said:
Ted you are absolutely correct. All of us are just one bad decision from this happening to us. All we can do is train, practice and I think discussing the potential for errors and how to prepare for it helps us all to be better aviators.

Beautiful night flight with AJ last night. Visibility was about a million miles.
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Ted DuPuis said:
This probably brings up something that, as pilots, we should be talking about more to help decision making.

We all talk about that guy who made an NTSB report out of himself and what we would have done differently, but I think it's easy to say that and remove yourself from the reality of being in the situation. We also sometimes talk about dumb decisions and what we learned, but what about when we used good ADM and broke the chain? The stories aren't as entertaining, but they are probably more useful, especially to the student reading along.
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Indeed, on all counts and all parties. Tim, your Arrow is beautiful. Flying 691SP today just felt... wrong.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This probably brings up something that, as pilots, we should be talking about more to help decision making.

We all talk about that guy who made an NTSB report out of himself and what we would have done differently, but I think it's easy to say that and remove yourself from the reality of being in the situation. We also sometimes talk about dumb decisions and what we learned, but what about when we used good ADM and broke the chain? The stories aren't as entertaining, but they are probably more useful, especially to the student reading along.
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Start a "Good ADM saved my bacon" thread... We'll post them over there. I have one from my last X/C flight.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wisconsin Aviation lost charter pilot, flight school manager and chief CFI Jim Quinn and his student (Private pilot), Bob Groh, in a crash last night. RIP.

http://fox6now.com/2013/11/06/two-dead-after-plane-crashes-in-kirksville-mo/
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N408DM/history/20131105/2045Z/KAPA/KIRK

KIRK 060055Z AUTO 17015G20KT 9SM OVC008 14/13 A2992 RMK AO2 SLP136 T01390128
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I feel ill. I had lunch with Bob Groh 10 days ago. Great guy. He had his
Saratoga on leaseback at Wisconsin Aviation at Watertown.

Most pilots I've met know someone who died flying an aircraft. This is my first.

Rest in Peace. :sad:
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
Start a "Good ADM saved my bacon" thread... We'll post them over there. I have one from my last X/C flight.
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Good idea. I'll do it later this weekend when I get a few minutes.

I'm also writing my book - "Now I Know Better." Almost 70 pages so far, and a lot of stories left.
 
nddons said:
:)
I feel ill. I had lunch with Bob Groh 10 days ago. Great guy. He had his
Saratoga on leaseback at Wisconsin Aviation at Watertown.
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So sorry to hear that.

From the looks of it, he did things the right way. Hired a mentor pilot to accompany him on a long late-fall trip that would encounter instrument weather. Accidents like that frequently dont yield a conclusion on in the NTSB report. They were on an instrument flight plan and diverted. Typically, you get queried by ATC for the reason for your diversion. It'll be interesting to hear whether they diverted for 'passenger comfort', destination weather in Quincy or due to instrument failure.
 
Was he on IMC approach? The article said he was on final.

Somebody said the last radar return showed 70knots GS. Is that a tad slow for a Saratoga? Just asking...

More than less accidents happen in the pattern at low and slow. Gotta get your head out of cruise when you get low. RIP
 
txflyer said:
Was he on IMC approach? The article said he was on final.

Somebody said the last radar return showed 70knots GS. Is that a tad slow for a Saratoga? Just asking...

More than less accidents happen in the pattern at low and slow. Gotta get your head out of cruise when you get low. RIP
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What were the winds? If he was on final, one can assume he was heading into the wind, so I would think that he was right on a correct final speed. Most people are way too fast on final.
 
KIRK 060055Z AUTO 17015G20KT 9SM OVC008 14/13 A2992 RMK AO2 SLP136
 
txflyer said:
Was he on IMC approach? The article said he was on final.

Somebody said the last radar return showed 70knots GS. Is that a tad slow for a Saratoga? Just asking...
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Add 5kts for wind and you are right on. A Saratoga with 2 up and after burning 3.5hrs of fuel is a kite. No, I don't think 70kts GS is anything abnormal. I believe the ceiling was 800ft with the approach minimums 370ft.
 
weilke said:
Add 5kts for wind and you are right on. A Saratoga with 2 up and after burning 3.5hrs of fuel is a kite. No, I don't think 70kts GS is anything abnormal. I believe the ceiling was 800ft with the approach minimums 370ft.
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Agreed. In those winds, 70 kts ground speed in a non-tail PA32R doesn't seem unusual. It would be another story with only two guys in a T-tail, but this one wasn't.
 
O.k. scratch too slow. With those headwinds, you could say a little fast with lower fuel. So loss of flight control due to stall looks out of the picture.

What's the fuel selector like? Do Saratoga's starve if you bank them on one tank? Could he possibly have selected off on the letdown?

I'll sure be curious to see what the determination is on this one.
 
txflyer said:
O.k. scratch too slow. With those headwinds, you could say a little fast with lower fuel. So loss of flight control due to stall looks out of the picture.

What's the fuel selector like? Do Saratoga's starve if you bank them on one tank? Could he possibly have selected off on the letdown?

I'll sure be curious to see what the determination is on this one.
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L/D Max on a PA 32 is around 100 kts, so I wouldn't say too fast either, 90 kts is a typical approach speed.
 
txflyer said:
What's the fuel selector like? Do Saratoga's starve if you bank them on one tank? Could he possibly have selected off on the letdown?
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It was an '81, so should have been the basic left/right.

The Lances/Saratogas don't have the 4 tank selector that the early Cherokee 6s have.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It was an '81, so should have been the basic left/right.

The Lances/Saratogas don't have the 4 tank selector that the early Cherokee 6s have.
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Isn't there a latch to keep you from accidentally selecting "Off" as well?
 
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