PA28R-180 Piper Arrow Panel Upgrade Talk
- Thread starter mandm
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flyingcheesehead
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Hah! I had to do a double take there and go back to the "3D Printed Aircraft Parts" group I'm in on Facebook, because that yoke horn kinda looks 3D printed. The one I just saw a few days ago there is different, though.
What are your buttons? Your horn is a lot like mine, and my left index finger button is my PTC for the GTX 350c, with the PTT under the index finger when not extended.
flyingcheesehead
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Ooooh, dat's purdy...
But now you're going to need a new interior to match the panel!
WilgaFlyer944
Filing Flight Plan
Mark, I noticed you were on this forum and I had a question to ask regarding the PMA 450C that you would probably have the answer to. Is there any way to use the USB C port on the face of the PMA 450C to stream music through to the PMA 450C? I feel like it would be a lot easier to plug it in there, charge my phone, and play music through there as well. Not a huge deal but it would be very nice to have that extra convenience in my opinion.
Thank you in advance. -DB
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
Does the red not match the black? HahaOoooh, dat's purdy...
But now you're going to need a new interior to match the panel!
Hang 4
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The USB C port is charging only.
Hang 4
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@WilgaFlyer944 - as an aside, there are two bluetooth connections as well as two wired connections for music. Think the wired would allow for a panel jack if you wanted it, but these days, bluetooth seems ubiquitous. I just use BT for music and also for clearances at un-towered airports.
WilgaFlyer944
Filing Flight Plan
Hang, I knew it had Bluetooth but I honestly haven't had any good experiences with it on the road at highway speeds but it might be different in the air and with a quality unit. I'll have to look into it. I prefer a physical connection most the time if I'm moving at high speeds anyway but I will be even more impressed with PS Engineering if it holds a solid BT connection for a whole flight. I'm going to look into putting in a USB C port somewhere on the panel anyway just for the anyhow. Thank you for the last response on the USB C port on the face of the unit.
flyingcheesehead
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I might be able to do that if my bird is out of annual (I expect she will be).
Pinecone
Final Approach
Why would speed have ANYTHING to do with a BlueTooth connection????????
The two devices are same distant apart the whole time. And wind does not affect radio waves (with BT is).
If you are talking about SXM, that is between the satellite and your receiver and has nothing to do with BT.
WilgaFlyer944
Filing Flight Plan
I will admit I completely forgot about that. I was also referring to the speed at which I was moving, nothing about the wind. I see why my earlier statement made no sense.
I had my expensive aftermarket car stereo pop in my head when I saw BlueTooth in the PMA 450 and figured it would be the same issues and didn't think more about it after that. I'm just going to hope this Audio Panel works better than the aftermarket car stereo of expensive disappointment. Knowing PS Engineering, I'm sure it will work perfectly.
Who knows. Maybe I will install a PMA 450C in my car next time.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
The devices can outrun the EM waves, obviously. If you are going fast, you can put the transmitter in front, and the electrons will flow backwards into the receiver.
Don't they teach science in school anymore?
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Bluetooth is bidirectional, so what you're really up against is something akin to retreating blade stall. Didn't they teach absurdism when you went to school?
@mandm I can't help get your plane back but it looks awesome. I'm going to show the picture to my friend who bought my Arrow a few years ago. I'm sure he'll thank me for helping him delay retirement by another couple of decades.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
In all your visits did you see how they do the markings on the panel? I have a project that I need to put some markings on and need to figure out how to do it.
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
They used transfer labels, I requested some extra ones with checklist items that I’ll decide later if I want to add them or not. I have not see the labels yet in person. Remind me later this week or next week and I’ll send some photos. Or maybe reach out to the avionics guys to see if they’ll help you out?
Is it something like this?
Good morning! We use https://imagetransfers.com/
They are fast to get the product to you and they do really good work!
Make sure you order at least 2 or 3 of each label you are putting on, just in case.
So Im replacing the switch panel on a 150 and I need to mark the new switches and CB. I assume I can use say Adobe Illustrator or the like to create the file I need. The question is do you make each one by it self or do you make the whole row and apply it all at once? Obviously making sure my dimensions and spacing are correct. I did the panel in Fusion 360 so I have a digital template to use.
And for all the maint police out there, I
am a Mechanic so everything is legit.
It has to be specific file type for their system to print them. They have good instructions on the website and they also have great customer service!
We do 1 at a time and not an entire row because that is how we have had the best success in applying them to panels, but to each their own. Whatever is easier for you!
Nope I will do them one at a time, exactly the advice I’m looking for, what works best. If my results are half as good as the pictures here I will be very happy. I think when I looked they could use a PDF file. So lots of choices to make it up. Prolly using word would be easy.
Thank you for the help! It’s all these little details that make a project go from good to great.
Pinecone
Final Approach
For my panel in my Mooney, they powder coated it white. Then powder coated it the pane, color (med dark grey). Then used a laser to etch the markings through the top coat to show the white. And I think they did a final powder coat of clear.
Attachments
Pinecone
Final Approach
I will admit I completely forgot about that. I was also referring to the speed at which I was moving, nothing about the wind. I see why my earlier statement made no sense.
I had my expensive aftermarket car stereo pop in my head when I saw BlueTooth in the PMA 450 and figured it would be the same issues and didn't think more about it after that. I'm just going to hope this Audio Panel works better than the aftermarket car stereo of expensive disappointment. Knowing PS Engineering, I'm sure it will work perfectly.
Who knows. Maybe I will install a PMA 450C in my car next time.
You are still missing the point.
1) The two devices are in the same vehicle, so traveling at the same speed.
2) Unless you are near the speed of light, speed will not effect radio waves.
Whoever told you that your expensive car radio did not work because of the speed of your car, is clueless.
So what I did not say is I have been experimenting with a few options. Etching with a CNC and then filling with paint works pretty good but leaves room for not a clean job. I also tried the laser and filling. I did not try the 2 coat method, based on my laser experience (not an expert but not a novice either) burning off the second coat could be real tricky. If the second coat was not applied consistently you could burn thru the white or not make it thur the top coat, also if your material or laser bed is not 100% flat you could have issues. But again I did not try it and I’m not an expert. Maybe it’s not as tricky as I think. I basically decided to go the rub on route. I did get the chance today to see a panel in person that was done with the rub on stuff and I feel like unless your scratching it with finger nails or some other stuff it will hold up. If not by the time it wears off I will just use a labeler with white on black tape.
Pinecone
Final Approach
Just saying, this is how a lot of shops who do this for a living are doing it.
If you have a CNC router, there is also a plastic sheet overlay that is two color layers. So you just CNC route through the top layer.
If you have a CNC router, there is also a plastic sheet overlay that is two color layers. So you just CNC route through the top layer.
Oh I’m absolutely going to give it a test. It maybe easier than I think to do it.
You have any more info on the two layer sheet thing? I have tested using oracal and laser then paint. It’s just really fun picking all the tiny pieces of the oracal off in the letters with islands.
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
Does your carbon monoxide detector hook up to anything? PIREP?
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
The Arrow has been picked up and flown back home. The panel is beautifully put together, I’m very happy with it.
Noticeable differences in the improvements in rigging, it flies extremely precise. It’s like a race car in the pattern, I loved it!
The avionics is on point. If anyone has comments on CHT and EGT temps when leaning, please share with me. More PIREPs to follow.
flyingcheesehead
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Beautiful!
I've got to ask, after seeing the long list of stuff you pulled out - How many more pounds of useful load do you have now?
What is it you want to know?
For EGT, specific temps don't matter. On climbout, after you've got the gear up and you're on your way in the right direction, at maybe 1000 AGL just take a glance at them to get an idea of where they are. Then, maintain roughly those same temps (within ~50ºF) for the remainder of the climb to get the best climb performance.
When leaning, just go to the Engine page and tap the button to enable Lean Assist:
And if you're flying LOP (like you should be
), well, personally I like to be at least 25º LOP on all cylinders, but I just wait for all of them to peak and then stop moving the red knob, wait 10-20 seconds and they'll all settle in between 25-50 LOP. Again, the value of EGT isn't important.CHT, you want to keep under 400. Under 380 is even better. The redline for CHT has to be set to the engine manufacturer's limitation, but I think the yellow line can be set to your preference. If they didn't ask you, it's probably set to 400 if the shop knows things. But don't use CHT for leaning! It significantly lags EGT, and you could be causing damage to the engine before it catches up. Always use EGT for leaning, and use CHT to ensure you're cooling the engine adequately.
Hope this helps!
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
Beautiful!
I've got to ask, after seeing the long list of stuff you pulled out - How many more pounds of useful load do you have now?
What is it you want to know?
For EGT, specific temps don't matter. On climbout, after you've got the gear up and you're on your way in the right direction, at maybe 1000 AGL just take a glance at them to get an idea of where they are. Then, maintain roughly those same temps (within ~50ºF) for the remainder of the climb to get the best climb performance.
When leaning, just go to the Engine page and tap the button to enable Lean Assist:
View attachment 138786
And if you're flying LOP (like you should be
CHT, you want to keep under 400. Under 380 is even better. The redline for CHT has to be set to the engine manufacturer's limitation, but I think the yellow line can be set to your preference. If they didn't ask you, it's probably set to 400 if the shop knows things. But don't use CHT for leaning! It significantly lags EGT, and you could be causing damage to the engine before it catches up. Always use EGT for leaning, and use CHT to ensure you're cooling the engine adequately.
Hope this helps!
Useful load
972lbs -> 987lbs
I don’t see the Lean Assist button on mine, read online that might be a setting that needs to be enabled in the configuration page?
I started to lean and then you can feel the airplane starts to lose a little power (few knots of airspeed) just before it would run rough so I richen in a bit from there. This is what I have been doing. CHT temps in the lower 300s.
flyingcheesehead
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Wow! I'm actually surprised at how little you gained. We got 25 pounds back when adding a GTN 750/GTX 345/GMA350c and yanking a bunch of stuff out. I guess it was probably the ADF that was the biggest boat anchor on that one, so maybe if you didn't pull an ADF that's why you didn't get as much. We also gained another 10 pounds when pulling out the vacuum system and putting in the GI275, but we did have dual vacuum pumps (main engine driven, standby electric).
Correct. It can be enabled for either EGT or TIT (for a turbo). Section 30.4.32.10 and 30.4.32.29 of the install manual.
You'll probably find that after you do all the fancy techie tricks with Lean Assist and what-not that you'll end up in almost the same spot that you do using this technique.
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
I thought the useful load would have went up more too, I was guessing at least to be 1000lbs+. But I’m guessing my previous useful load could have been inaccurate? But the vacuum system doesn’t weigh as much as I thought it would either. Plus a lot of new equipment was installed, heavier insulation, etc.Wow! I'm actually surprised at how little you gained. We got 25 pounds back when adding a GTN 750/GTX 345/GMA350c and yanking a bunch of stuff out. I guess it was probably the ADF that was the biggest boat anchor on that one, so maybe if you didn't pull an ADF that's why you didn't get as much. We also gained another 10 pounds when pulling out the vacuum system and putting in the GI275, but we did have dual vacuum pumps (main engine driven, standby electric).
Correct. It can be enabled for either EGT or TIT (for a turbo). Section 30.4.32.10 and 30.4.32.29 of the install manual.
You'll probably find that after you do all the fancy techie tricks with Lean Assist and what-not that you'll end up in almost the same spot that you do using this technique.
Pinecone
Final Approach
I will ask the shop.