PA Lawyers - Custody Question - Revised - Need more PA lawyer input

Greebo

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
A friend who has made, let us say, not the most fully thought out choices in the past is now considering one that I suspect also isn't fully thought out.

She has a verbal custody agreement with her ex husband over their 9 year old son. (And the 17 yr old daughter but she's old enough to make her own decision in this matter...)

She's been the primary caregiver for several years. He goes to the dad's place on every other weekend.

She is now considering relocating to Tennessee, taking the kids, WITHOUT the father's prior knowledge or consent.

My suspicion - this could potentially open up a huge kettle of worms for her.

Opinions?
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Greebo said:
A friend who has made, let us say, not the most fully thought out choices in the past is now considering one that I suspect also isn't fully thought out.

She has a verbal custody agreement with her ex husband over their 9 year old son. (And the 17 yr old daughter but she's old enough to make her own decision in this matter...)

She's been the primary caregiver for several years. He goes to the dad's place on every other weekend.

She is now considering relocating to Tennessee, taking the kids, WITHOUT the father's prior knowledge or consent.

My suspicion - this could potentially open up a huge kettle of worms for her.

Opinions?
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It doesn't take a lawyer (or even a law student) to opine that relocating the kids without consent will make eventual custody settlement less acceptable.

NY has case law 90 mile "limit," beyond which there needs to be extenuating circumstances that justify the move (mother married Warren Buffet and has to move to Omaha -- that sort of thing).
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Yeah not very well thought out is right. The Court has slammed folks for doing this. We had one mom who tried it and Court said you don't have to come back but the kid does. Man did she waste a lot of money on two relocations.

More importantly. They are gonna harm the kid by doing that. Even if Kid only sees the dad on weekends its gonna hurt him to just take away that contact. :nonod:
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Opinion -- your friend needs to consult a good family practice attorney licensed in the state where she and the kid are before taking the kid across a state line.

BTW, I have trouble accepting that there was no written custody agreement or order at the time of the divorce. I could believe that she and her husband made some verbal agreement to deviate from it, but not that there wasn't one. Further, if such a verbal agreement was made such that it expanded the mom's rights beyond the written agreement/order, I doubt the husband will verify it if it goes to court.

All that said, there's probably not much you can do to save someone who makes "not the most fully thought out choices" from her own impulsiveness other than to inform her of the facts and then try to stay out of the debris field.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Ron Levy said:
Opinion -- your friend needs to consult a good family practice attorney licensed in the state where she and the kid are before taking the kid across a state line.
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Agreed and so recommended.

BTW, I have trouble accepting that there was no written custody agreement or order at the time of the divorce. I could believe that she and her husband made some verbal agreement to deviate from it, but not that there wasn't one. Further, if such a verbal agreement was made such that it expanded the mom's rights beyond the written agreement/order, I doubt the husband will verify it if it goes to court.
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I question that myself, but she insists that there wasn't a written one. If her insistence really means that it was a verbal agreement to change things, she's not saying.

All that said, there's probably not much you can do to save someone who makes "not the most fully thought out choices" from her own impulsiveness other than to inform her of the facts and then try to stay out of the debris field.
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Yes, I know - and with this person I've learned only to throw out advice and shut the **** up because if I try to make her see facts she doesn't WANT to see, it just gets ugly.

I'm more concerned with the impact on the kids, honestly.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Greebo said:
I'm more concerned with the impact on the kids, honestly.
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If you're really worried about the kids, and think the mom will just up sticks and go, tell the ex-husband now so if he's not amenable to it, he can put the brakes on this plan before it goes any further.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Ron Levy said:
If you're really worried about the kids, and think the mom will just up sticks and go, tell the ex-husband now so if he's not amenable to it, he can put the brakes on this plan before it goes any further.
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Worth thinking about, thanks.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

I'm not licensed in Pennsylvania. With that in mind, there is a lot of commonality between the states when it comes to parenting laws - precisely because the situation described in this thread is, sadly, all-too-frequent.

So, there are generally two ways to take children legally out of the state when the parents are separated: 1) consent of both parents; or 2) a court order (i.e., the moving parent files a motion with the court).

Don't do that, and you're looking at serious problems - potentially even including kidnapping charges. As there are state lines involved, there could be Federal charges.

As Ron mentioned, if this was a divorce that went through to finality, there should be written documents regarding child custody. If there was a separation agreement adopted by the court, it could be that the parties orally modified it post-divorce (which is sometimes allowed), but there should be something in writing somewhere. There is not a court in the land that will allow something like child custody to go unwritten. Period.

Finally, in the absence of all else, tell your friend that if she does as she's proposing, she'll end up in court one way or the other. If she wants to keep custody, let her know that the ultimate question asked by the judge will be "what is in the child's best interests," and that it ain't in a kid's best interests to be in the custody of a parent who will follow neither the law nor court orders.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Adam et al,

Does the fact that she's the primary caregiver in their arrangement matter? If for the last 6 years, he's only been the "every other weekend dad", would that change anything?
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Greebo said:
Adam et al,

Does the fact that she's the primary caregiver in their arrangement matter? If for the last 6 years, he's only been the "every other weekend dad", would that change anything?
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Again, I can't speak to PA law, but take the following as a general discussion:

Primary "caregiver" isn't primary or sole "decisionmaker." The two are separable. Caretakers are responsible for breakfast in the morning, picking the kid up from school, etc. Decisionmaking responsibility, which is generally joint between the two parents, involves things like choice of school, religion, and where the kids will live.

So, unless the court has decreed (and trust me, this will be in writing - this verbal stuff is nonsense) that she is the primary caretaker and decisionmaker, the ex needs to give his consent or there will need to be a court order.

Also, separation/custody agreements/orders generally require that the parties arbitrate disputes before going to a judge. So that's something else to think about.

You also might want to refer her to the UCCJEA - the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act. That governs a lot of disputes that involve state lines; most, if not all, states have adopted a version of it.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Thank you - I think its best if I relay this information (with the clear message that this is not official legal advice etc.) to her, and wish her the best whatever her decision.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

SkyHog said:
Right, because interpreting written law is so difficult it requires a law degree to opine :rolleyes:
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Uh no. If you would have read the Title it says "PA Lawyers-Custody Question"

Too many folks here aren't attorneys but enjoy playing one on the internet.:frown2:
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

The dude is still the father and the child is still his. Doing a thing like that is just plain obviously wrong. This may not be true if there are extenuating circumstances, but I haven't read any. If you feel the need to flame away just remember that opinions were sought, and you got mine.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Rotor&Wing said:
Uh no. If you would have read the Title it says "PA Lawyers-Custody Question"

Too many folks here aren't attorneys but enjoy playing one on the internet.:frown2:
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OI

How about you let me, the OP, judge whether input is useful or not, kthxla?
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Greebo said:
Adam et al,

Does the fact that she's the primary caregiver in their arrangement matter? If for the last 6 years, he's only been the "every other weekend dad", would that change anything?
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Primary custody and legal custody are very different things. So I'd say it don't matter a whole hill of beans if he only sees the child two weekends per month. She should consult a PA Domestic relations attorney in her county. PM me where she lives and I'll get you the county bars lawyer referral number. By the way your MO is a good one. If she don't want to listen it will just drive you nuts.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Rotor&Wing said:
Uh no. If you would have read the Title it says "PA Lawyers-Custody Question"

Too many folks here aren't attorneys but enjoy playing one on the internet.:frown2:
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It don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows. And lawyers don't give legal advice over the internet like this, anyway. The only question is whether you think the person giving the advice knows what s/he's talking about on this issue. Greebo's smart enough and has known most of us long enough to decide how much weight to give our advice.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Legal advice my six. This sounds a lot more like pretty basic common sense.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Ron Levy said:
It don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows. And lawyers don't give legal advice over the internet like this, anyway. The only question is whether you think the person giving the advice knows what s/he's talking about on this issue. Greebo's smart enough and has known most of us long enough to decide how much weight to give our advice.
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Sure thing there Esquire......:rofl:
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

steingar said:
Legal advice my six. This sounds a lot more like pretty basic common sense.
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Possibly, but I have found that often, common sense and the law can be two very, very different things. All that matters is what the law says and how the judge applies and interprets it. PERIOD.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Anthony said:
Possibly, but I have found that often, common sense and the law can be two very, very different things. All that matters is what the law says and how the judge applies and interprets it. PERIOD.
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I won't disagree, but parenthood is a pretty damn basic thing. I doubt there are too many judges who would disenfranchise a parent without a very good reason.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

steingar said:
I won't disagree, but parenthood is a pretty damn basic thing. I doubt there are too many judges who would disenfranchise a parent without a very good reason.
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Not really the question here. The issue is whether it would be prudent for the mother to take the kid across a state line without the father's permission or competent legal advice (which one cannot obtain in this forum based on the original post). It doesn't take a law degree to know that's a real bad idea.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Anthony said:
Possibly, but I have found that often, common sense and the law can be two very, very different things. All that matters is what the law says and how the judge applies and interprets it. PERIOD.
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Witness a certain governmenTS Agency.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

Rotor&Wing said:
This forum is the LAST place on earth I would seek "legal" advice.

But knock yourself out there fella.
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Thank you very much for your input, it has been noted and filed in the appropriate category.
 
Re: PA Lawyers - Custody Question

So my friend and her ex signed an updated custody agreement. She moved to TN. Now the ex is suing for custody.

Given a custody agreement where the ink isn't even dry yet that says she can have the kids, what is a judge likely to do? My friend can't afford to go back and forth to Pittsburgh and hire a lawyer to boot - what can she do?
 
Couple issues.

First, was the updated agreement approved by the court? Although I can't speak specifically to PA law, court approval of parenting agreements is a general requirement.

Second, assuming so, even though the agreement said she had custody of the children, "custody" isn't the sole issue. There may be a distinction in PA between "custody" and "decision-making," with the latter possibily being joint even if the former wasn't. On top of that, simply having sole custody and sole decision-making responsibility isn't necessarily a license to leave the state with the kids. If the agreement didn't specifically allow her to leave the state with the children, there could be big-time trouble.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm not licensed in PA - these are, however, potential issues that should be looked into ASAP.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Couple issues.

First, was the updated agreement approved by the court? Although I can't speak specifically to PA law, court approval of parenting agreements is a general requirement.

Second, assuming so, even though the agreement said she had custody of the children, "custody" isn't the sole issue. There may be a distinction in PA between "custody" and "decision-making," with the latter possibily being joint even if the former wasn't. On top of that, simply having sole custody and sole decision-making responsibility isn't necessarily a license to leave the state with the kids. If the agreement didn't specifically allow her to leave the state with the children, there could be big-time trouble.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm not licensed in PA - these are, however, potential issues that should be looked into ASAP.
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That's where I was going. I'm not a PA lawyer (or any sort of lawyer)either but every horror-story I've heard about custody involves a parent violating (sometimes unknowingly) violating the terms of the agreement.
 
I guess every area of law has its share of goofy cases and even goofier decisons. Aviation law is probably close to the top of the list. Family law cases seems to be pretty close to the top as well.
 
TMetzinger said:
That's where I was going. I'm not a PA lawyer (or any sort of lawyer)either but every horror-story I've heard about custody involves a parent violating (sometimes unknowingly) violating the terms of the agreement.
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But what we have here is a case where she informed the ex of her plans, he agreed to a new custody agreement, she moved, then he sued for custody.

I don't know if the courts agreed or not - but the guy was clearly gaming her - signing an agreement he didn't intend to uphold. At least that seems pretty clear to me...but i'm no judge. :)
 
I think the key to any divorce agreement, including custody, is court approval. If she didn't get court approval, she's screwed. Even with court approval, it depends on which judge HE gets.
The other thing I've found with courts, is even when all things are said and done, it's not over. NEVER EVER assume it is.
 
Not providing legal advice, but I would be concerned that the UCCJA (Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act), assuming that the states in issue have both adopted it, will require that the issue be decided in a court back in PA, unlessthe child had lived in the new locale for at least six months.

Sometimes the cost and disruption of having to respond in a distant forum means you've lost already.

Consult competent counsel.
 
Greebo said:
But what we have here is a case where she informed the ex of her plans, he agreed to a new custody agreement, she moved, then he sued for custody.

I don't know if the courts agreed or not - but the guy was clearly gaming her - signing an agreement he didn't intend to uphold. At least that seems pretty clear to me...but i'm no judge. :)
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I see what you're saying, and I understand the confusion. But, as a general matter of law, agreements to custody (who the child lives with) is different from an agreement for the child to live outside of the state....
 
SCCutler said:
Not providing legal advice, but I would be concerned that the UCCJA (Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act), assuming that the states in issue have both adopted it, will require that the issue be decided in a court back in PA, unlessthe child had lived in the new locale for at least six months.

Sometimes the cost and disruption of having to respond in a distant forum means you've lost already.

Consult competent counsel.
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Note my disclaimer. :D
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
I see what you're saying, and I understand the confusion. But, as a general matter of law, agreements to custody (who the child lives with) is different from an agreement for the child to live outside of the state....
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Exactly. Unless one parent waives ALL parental rights, you've still got visitation and grandparents and other issues that may require coordination before the custodial parent can move to another state.
 
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