PA-28R Prebuy

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Prebuy on a PA-28R Engine Log local shop overhaul only stated engine overhauled details on file. The owner had to pay $100. to get a list of what they did on the overhaul after he had already paid 16K for the overhaul.
 
Why didn't he have the original document in the plane's file? What knowledge do you take away from this experience?
 
Is the shop a repair station?

brien23 said:
Prebuy on a PA-28R Engine Log local shop overhaul only stated engine overhauled details on file. The owner had to pay $100. to get a list of what they did on the overhaul after he had already paid 16K for the overhaul.
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Henning said:
Why didn't he have the original document in the plane's file? What knowledge do you take away from this experience?
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What document is required in the aircraft file?

As an A&P overhauling engines what records am I required to keep?
 
brien23 said:
Prebuy on a PA-28R Engine Log local shop overhaul only stated engine overhauled details on file. The owner had to pay $100. to get a list of what they did on the overhaul after he had already paid 16K for the overhaul.
Click to expand...

Some body's got to pay for the copy machine paper, the time to copy and the postal fees :)

times are tough all over the industry.
 
Tom-D said:
What document is required in the aircraft file?

As an A&P overhauling engines what records am I required to keep?
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The documents I want for my records, parts and machining invoices.
 
Tom-D said:
Some body's got to pay for the copy machine paper, the time to copy and the postal fees :)

times are tough all over the industry.
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Probably real tough for a shop who charges you for paperwork on the engine install. Why not just add $100 bucks to the cost of the OH and hand over the paperwork, don't tell people you're screwing them.
 
Henning said:
Why didn't he have the original document in the plane's file? What knowledge do you take away from this experience?
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The owner Never got anything but the bill and a signoff of overhaul in the logbook. To see what parts and what they did cost him another $100 over the price of the overhaul for a list of parts used and what they did.
 
At the doctor's office today, there was a sign up saying if you want copies of your records, it will be $10 plus 74 cents a page.

Welcome to the 21st century.
 
brien23 said:
The owner Never got anything but the bill and a signoff of overhaul in the logbook. To see what parts and what they did cost him another $100 over the price of the overhaul for a list of parts used and what they did.
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I tell em upfront that I need a copy of all invoices. That may be a lesson you want to take from this, especially where overhauls are concerned. Not all overhauls are created equal, I want to know what parts were replaced and machine work done for that $16k.
 
Henning said:
I tell em upfront that I need a copy of all invoices. That may be a lesson you want to take from this, especially where overhauls are concerned. Not all overhauls are created equal, I want to know what parts were replaced and machine work done for that $16k.
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where is the requirement, they give those to you?
 
Tom-D said:
where is the requirement, they give those to you?
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If they want to get the job, they agree or I walk, that requirement, the getting the business one, the customer's requirement. Anyone not willing to comply with that is likely trying to pull a scam.
 
Ron Levy said:
At the doctor's office today, there was a sign up saying if you want copies of your records, it will be $10 plus 74 cents a page.

Welcome to the 21st century.
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My doc is a big fan of scanning everything and has a cool medical records system with terminals in each exam room. Instead of marking up paper (which someone then has to put into the computer database), he's making the entries himself. When I commented on the system, he shared that it's become a major time and costs saver for his practice.

I'm sure if I wanted my chart, I could just hand him a thumb drive and get everything as a batch PDF.
 
Henning said:
If they want to get the job, they agree or I walk, that requirement, the getting the business one, the customer's requirement. Anyone not willing to comply with that is likely trying to pull a scam.
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That's the only lever you have, and when cheap is the determining factor, you get what you pay for.

When I overhaul your engine, you are buying the parts and paying me to disassemble, clean, inspect, and give you a list of parts that are required to return to service as you determine, and reassemble and test. You can see what yo buy just by looking at the credit card bills.

You want service limits? I'm good with that.
You want new? I'm good with that too.

You have a failed part? deal with the guy who you bought the parts from.
You have issues with how it was assembled? I'll deal with that.
 
Tom-D said:
That's the only lever you have, and when cheap is the determining factor, you get what you pay for.

When I overhaul your engine, you are buying the parts and paying me to disassemble, clean, inspect, and give you a list of parts that are required to return to service as you determine, and reassemble and test. You can see what yo buy just by looking at the credit card bills.

You want service limits? I'm good with that.
You want new? I'm good with that too.

You have a failed part? deal with the guy who you bought the parts from.
You have issues with how it was assembled? I'll deal with that.
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Exactly, however many if not most shops don't allow for that. Under your method I have the records in my file, just like I said is the way to have it. It's the Owner's responsibility for keeping the Maint records. What the FAA requires is the minimum list, not the restricted to list. In the OP the owner failed to keep the records that buyers want. If you are selling, those are required records as well, the FAA isn't the only one looking for records. It cost him $100 to comply.
 
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If I were running the shop, and Henning told me that up front, the $100 for the extra copies would disappear into the quote just like the umbrella in the expense report. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
If I were running the shop, and Henning told me that up front, the $100 for the extra copies would disappear into the quote just like the umbrella in the expense report. ;)
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$100 for record keeping on a $16k overhaul is fine as long as you provide me the record of the parts you installed and the machine work you had done before the engine fails. No different than buying insurance, $100 one time premium on $16k is an acceptable premium considering the risk. What I want is to have the ammunition to come back on you when the engine fails and I find you did a 'spray can overhaul'. Mechanics breeds crooks like everything else, if you don't have the wherewithal to protect yourself, you're likely to get robbed.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, however many if not most shops don't allow for that. Under your method I have the records in my file, just like I said is the way to have it. It's the Owner's responsibility for keeping the Maint records. What the FAA requires is the minimum list, not the restricted to list. In the OP the owner failed to keep the records that buyers want. If you are selling, those are required records as well, the FAA isn't the only one looking for records. It cost him $100 to comply.
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no, the FAA does not require any such thing, only required record is FAR 43.5

I'm not even REQUIRED to give you the 8130-3 tags.

Maintenance record entry is all that is required, and If the overhauler is a CRS they can throw the work request and any other records away after 24 months.

IF the owner doesn't get these records at the time of the overhaul, they simply could be SOL trying to get them later.

In the case of Brien 23's issues, it matters not, because it is only a matter of what condition the engine is in now.
What is the oil consumption, What is the compression, What is the wobble check measurements? What cylinders does it have on now?
 
Ron Levy said:
If I were running the shop, and Henning told me that up front, the $100 for the extra copies would disappear into the quote just like the umbrella in the expense report. ;)
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But 2 years later, you got to go look it all up again, is that going to be free?

Most shops it will be, because they want your return business.

Now you have a new owner worried about what they are about to buy, do you have any obligation to them?
 
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FWIW when we got our CRS approved a few years back the PMI said that he never, ever, for any reason wanted any paper to be found in our records more than 24 months old.

Therefore I purge the first of each month
 
Skylane81E said:
FWIW when we got our CRS approved a few years back the PMI said that he never, ever, for any reason wanted any paper to be found in our records more than 24 months old.

Therefore I purge the first of each month
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then keep them on a CD
 
Henning said:
I tell em upfront that I need a copy of all invoices. That may be a lesson you want to take from this, especially where overhauls are concerned. Not all overhauls are created equal, I want to know what parts were replaced and machine work done for that $16k.
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I go one step further and ask for my old parts back.
 
The question was not directed to you. Is the shop a repair station?
Tom-D said:
If they are, they can throw the records away after 24 months, then you got nothing.
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wabower said:
The question was not directed to you. Is the shop a repair station?
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This was a well known Engine overhaul shop in Fla. The work they did on the engine was very good and I have no problem with that. The $100. they charged for al list of what they did, why they did not just charge a little more and give the owner a list is beyoun me?
 
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