PA-28-236 new builds

[PA31T2]

in reading the thread about the 182 vs the sr-22 got me thinking as to why does piper not build new pa-28-236 or Dakotas anymore. Obviously, Cessna has produced their version (the 182) for many years since the re start and there seems to be a market for higher performance fixed gear singles and they already build the various forms of the archer -181. I cannot imagine there is much added costs to offer for sale a new build -236. When you see some of the prices on the used market for quality 236 I would think something with more power and payload would be available. just curious

 

[ktup-flyer]

182 beats it by a good bit in fuel capacity and cabin size. Idk that there is much demand for it

 

[frfly172]

I think piper is too late to the game with the 236. It’s a nice plane .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If the C182 had the cabin of the C172, would it still be as in demand? I doubt it... And that's the big problem with the PA-28-236. It's got the horsepower of the 182, but it's still a PA28 so it has a smaller cabin.

In 2024, Piper shipped only three overall types of airplanes: PA28s (-181 and Pilot 100i variants), PA44 Seminoles, and the PA46 variants (M series). The 26 Seminoles almost certainly were all sold to the training market, and a good portion of the 182 (hah!) PA28s likely were as well. But they also sold 83 M series aircraft, with 46 of them being the latest most powerful M700 Fury. I'll let you guess where they really make their money.

Meanwhile, Cessna sold 164 172s, 76 182s, 34 206s, 70 Caravans, 24 SkyCouriers, and 164 Citations.

Cirrus sold 509 SR22s, so they are probably just sucking all the air out of the high performance market.

 

[traumamed]

If the C182 had the cabin of the C172, would it still be as in demand? I doubt it... And that's the big problem with the PA-28-236. It's got the horsepower of the 182, but it's still a PA28 so it has a smaller cabin.

In 2024, Piper shipped only three overall types of airplanes: PA28s (-181 and Pilot 100i variants), PA44 Seminoles, and the PA46 variants (M series). The 26 Seminoles almost certainly were all sold to the training market, and a good portion of the 182 (hah!) PA28s likely were as well. But they also sold 83 M series aircraft, with 46 of them being the latest most powerful M700 Fury. I'll let you guess where they really make their money.

Meanwhile, Cessna sold 164 172s, 76 182s, 34 206s, 70 Caravans, 24 SkyCouriers, and 164 Citations.

Cirrus sold 509 SR22s, so they are probably just sucking all the air out of the high performance market.

Anyone know if Mooney plans to start manufacturing again? They apparently still operate as a company, but haven't rolled out a plane since, what, 2019? The Acclaim was one helluva plane that provided an alternative option to an SR22.

 

[masloki]

Anyone know if Mooney plans to start manufacturing again? They apparently still operate as a company, but haven't rolled out a plane since, what, 2019? The Acclaim was one helluva plane that provided an alternative option to an SR22.

No claims to produce new aircraft though they have stated a desire to tackle the refurb market. That said, I haven’t seen signs, even with the scaled back operations focused on parts production, is working well. Website not updated, etc. Their business plan included adding production jobs from other industries to increase their utilization rates.

 

[PA31T2]

I guess maybe I should have phrased it as if piper already build the same basic airframe how much more cost is there to offer the 235 engine or dakota model. I realize the 182 has better capability and size vs the 172 but if Piper is already building fixed gear PA-28 airframes hanging a bigger engine can't increase their costs that much. If Cessna sold 76 of the 182 then even if Piper only sells 20-25 -236 it's at least something to keep their product moving. I know that these manufactures Cessna and Piper get their bread buttered from moving turbine equipment and not single engine light aircraft. I guess Piper has run the numbers and determined it is just not worth the effort.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

I guess maybe I should have phrased it as if piper already build the same basic airframe how much more cost is there to offer the 235 engine or dakota model. I realize the 182 has better capability and size vs the 172 but if Piper is already building fixed gear PA-28 airframes hanging a bigger engine can't increase their costs that much. If Cessna sold 76 of the 182 then even if Piper only sells 20-25 -236 it's at least something to keep their product moving. I know that these manufactures Cessna and Piper get their bread buttered from moving turbine equipment and not single engine light aircraft. I guess Piper has run the numbers and determined it is just not worth the effort.

Actually I'm not sure the 182 beats the Dakota in every category. Useful load on the Dakota seems higher, as well as cruise speed.
The Dakota is not the "same" airframe as the others. The engine compartment has to be longer to accommodate the 6 cylinder engine and I think the wingspan and stabilator are wider. I have heard, but don't know for sure, that the wing attachment is somewhat different from the other PA28's.

 

[midwestpa24]

Actually I'm not sure the 182 beats the Dakota in every category. Useful load on the Dakota seems higher, as well as cruise speed.
The Dakota is not the "same" airframe as the others. The engine compartment has to be longer to accommodate the 6 cylinder engine and I think the wingspan and stabilator are wider. I have heard, but don't know for sure, that the wing attachment is somewhat different from the other PA28's.

But where it really needs to be different to justify the bigger engine is the cabin, which the Dakota is not different than the other Cherokee models. The 182 is a substantial step up from a 172, not just a 172 with 235 horsepower.

I think Piper's philosophy is if you want a bigger Cherokee, you would spring for the Lance/6/Saratoga. Even then, sales must not have been that great, and were discontinued in 2009. Even the Seneca was dropped in 2019, in favor of the Matrix/Malibu/Meridian lineup.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

But where it really needs to be different to justify the bigger engine is the cabin, which the Dakota is not different than the other Cherokee models. The 182 is a substantial step up from a 172, not just a 172 with 235 horsepower.

I think Piper's philosophy is if you want a bigger Cherokee, you would spring for the Lance/6/Saratoga. Even then, sales must not have been that great, and were discontinued in 2009. Even the Seneca was dropped in 2019, in favor of the Matrix/Malibu/Meridian lineup.

It's kind of a catch 22; the 182 has the bigger cabin but a lot of them have so much additional equipment and stuff that the load is not really up to the reputation of "anything you can close the doors on." The Dakota can still handle 4 adults, 200 pounds of luggage, and a good bit of gas. But I think there are partisans of each one, and each has its obvious benefit.

 

[WhichWays_Up]

What about this kind of Piper? Hehe





If I had to venture a guess, Piper's gravy train is with their Trainer line of piston slappers. And from there, the Turbine singles. Trainers go to the schools, turbines go to the business owners.

Bringing the Dakota back from the dead would be a costly and most likely, bad idea from a market standpoint. That said, the "New" 182 market is not as hot as some may think.

I'd love to see some new airframes from Piper, Beech or Cessna.....but with everything going on these days, who knows if that will, or will never happen.
Acquiring a new aircraft is out of reach for most GA private pilots, which means demand is small.....

PS... I don't know why my AI overlord put a Nutcracker dude infront of the nose Gear.....

 

[traumamed]

What about this kind of Piper? Hehe

If I had to venture a guess, Piper's gravy train is with their Trainer line of piston slappers. And from there, the Turbine singles. Trainers go to the schools, turbines go to the business owners.

Bringing the Dakota back from the dead would be a costly and most likely, bad idea from a market standpoint. That said, the "New" 182 market is not as hot as some may think.

I'd love to see some new airframes from Piper, Beech or Cessna.....but with everything going on these days, who knows if that will, or will never happen.
Acquiring a new aircraft is out of reach for most GA private pilots, which means demand is small.....

PS... I don't know why my AI overlord put a Nutcracker dude infront of the nose Gear.....

Prospective aircraft buyers would be wise to wait a little while to see what the new MOSAIC rules bring to market. Also, to see what effect MOSAIC has on the used market. Piper/Cessna are probably not too excited about what may be on the horizon.

 

[WhichWays_Up]

Prospective aircraft buyers would be wise to wait a little while to see what the new MOSAIC rules bring to market. Also, to see what effect MOSAIC has on the used market. Piper/Cessna are probably not too excited about what may be on the horizon.

I agree.