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StraightnLevel
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Wagondriver
Line Up and Wait
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375Taylor
Unless you buy a POS, annuals should never be $25 to $50k, or anywhere close to that. In 7 years of owning my 180 I have had to replace 1 cylinder and overhaul 2, overhaul the carb, some rod ends, a fuel bladder, a new tailwheel, and maybe some other small stuff. Everything else I spent was by choice.
I think a new plane is ridiculous unless you are flying it 1000 hrs a year, like a flight school.
I think a new plane is ridiculous unless you are flying it 1000 hrs a year, like a flight school.
mcmanigle
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John McManigle
I was under the impression (though never looked myself) that banks don't generally write 30-year notes on depreciating assets. I thought you were looking at more like a 5-10 year loan on a plane, 15 at the outside. But I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong; maybe new planes are different...
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3G
Buying new works if you need an expensive to maintain rapidly depreciating asset. Buying a project works if you’ve got new airplane money but would rather buy your mechanic a boat.
Everything else is the sweet spot. Hangar, insurance, maintenance and avgas will eventually eclipse capex though, so it really depends on how big your bucket of disposable income is.
Everything else is the sweet spot. Hangar, insurance, maintenance and avgas will eventually eclipse capex though, so it really depends on how big your bucket of disposable income is.
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
Your insurance will be directly related to hull value. A $600k plane will cost more than a $100k model. Liability is more related to number of seats.
It depends on how nice of a plane you want. To buy an old plane and make it as nice as a brand new one will cost probably 3/4 of the new price. Most are satisfied with a mid time engine, worn interior, and avionics from the Carter administration. Personally, if I was Archer shopping, I'd buy an older model and spend the money I would've paid the bank on upgrades over time. That said, if I had the cash I'd be inclined to buy a new one. I have a hard time borrowing money for a luxury item, ymmv.
Following this thread out of interest. Is this a widely accepted "rule of thumb" (close enough +/- to apply to most general aviation aircraft) or just a figure you calculated for the particular aircraft you're considering?
To get something brand new you’re looking at 400k-900k more easy anywhere from a Cessna to a Cirrus. 5% interest on that is substantial. Plus depreciation, insurance, any damages, and it’s difficult and time consuming to sell an airplane.
As far as engine maintenance and expensive annuals, you just never know.
As far as engine maintenance and expensive annuals, you just never know.
That might be a little rich for an Archer, but I agree in principle. In my case, I was shopping for a plane that hasn't been built since the 70's, so new wasn't a consideration. I needed a combination of seats and useful load that no longer exists in the new market, with the exception of the Vision Jet lol. I put together a spreadsheet that added $20/hour (reasonable at the time) for engine time, a discount for paint & interior if they were ugly, and the cost of bringing the avionics up to my minimum, which was 430 WAAS or better, engine monitor, and functional 2 axis A/P. I also estimated an airframe EOL at 15000 hours and adjusted for TT, which wound up being $5/hr. All those numbers would be about double today for my plane.
Put together objective numbers like that and it becomes a lot easier to analyze different options. When my current plane popped up on the market, the spreadsheet screamed "BUY!" and I signed a contract on it the day after it was listed. A plane available new would be even easier to put numbers on because you know what the replacement airframe would cost. Just don't forget that new airplanes tend to have WAY lower useful load than old ones.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you want an SR 22, the G5 or G6 are the way to go. Personally I think around a 15 to a 19 are in the sweet spot. The g5 and 6 have a 3600 gross weight which makes the aircraft very useful. I would also do the FIKI and AC. As far as the economics of it, don't bother, it doesn't make sense.
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3G
It can be factored a couple of ways, but the formula is the same: Engine Choice / TBO. In our case, we just purchased an exchange O-320-E2D for our 172. That was just under $36,000; For each hour going forward this year, we will assess $18/hr that goes directly to the OH fund. We also needed a new prop; that was $7800 and since our prop isn't time-limited, we're just scheduling it as a new prop at TBO, so again, 7800/2000hrs = $4/hr for an OH assessment of $22/hr; we'll fudge it up to $25/hr just for kicks and grins and expect to come out of pocket another $10K or so for labor and whatnot at the next OH. Of course, we'll adjust these numbers annually to reflect current prices.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
"Predictions are hard, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra
I’m calling the peak
Just for fun, I’m calling the peak of plane pricing as of today. Interest rates going up, fuel skyrocketing, plane prices themselves having spiked, war. I’m calling it. I’ve noticed a number of peak-of-the-market planes have been sitting on the market and lowering their prices. What do you think?
Ed Haywood
En-Route
A house bought for $300K in 2010 is worth at least $600K now. $300K invested in the S&P500 is worth $1.3M. A new Cirrus in 2010 was a crap investment in financial terms. It is reasonable to expect the same from a new one now.
Airplanes depreciate for 15-20 years, then bottom out and start keeping pace or even appreciating. Older Cirri are entering that window. That's probably the best opportunity to balance cost and value.
IMO the other good opportunity is an aircraft from the peak market years of late 70's to early 80's, well maintained and upgraded with modern avionics as budget allows.
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FancyG
Pre-takeoff checklist
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FancyG
I'm not calling squat. But I am taking someone's word on it, and that's that we're about to see 2008 all over again."Predictions are hard, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra
I’m calling the peak
Just for fun, I’m calling the peak of plane pricing as of today. Interest rates going up, fuel skyrocketing, plane prices themselves having spiked, war. I’m calling it. I’ve noticed a number of peak-of-the-market planes have been sitting on the market and lowering their prices. What do you think?www.pilotsofamerica.com
Gotta get myself some more hours and an IR, then it's Aztec shoppin' time.
Me and my partner have been doing $65/hr since we bought our 1970 182 about 5 years ago. Only used that fund for bid ticket items. A cylinder a couple years ago, and now we are sending the engine for overhaul. We have more than half the money we are gonna need for engine overhaul, prop and gov overhaul, and engine mount inspection. So between the both of us we have cash on hand to cover the remaining balance.
I have found a lot of the ramp/Hangar queens are owners that thought they only had to pay for fuel and not thinking about have a reserve fund. So when the expensive repairs were needed, they didn’t have the money. So now they own a plane sitting and rotting away.
That’s what life insurance is for. It let’s your widow repair the plane before she sells it.
dans2992
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Dans2992
If she’s a widow, chances are it’s totaled.
Then I guess the wealthy widow cashes the life insurance and the plane insurance checks.
win/win.......win?
dans2992
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Dans2992
I would like the option to save on insurance by letting them out of paying out hull value if I’m dead. At that point. I don’t care.
brcase
En-Route
If you own it long enough you will likely get one or more of these $25/50k repairs.
We have owned our Scout for about 25 years now. Did really good for the 1st 20years, but about 5 years ago a Crankshaft AD finally required an engine tear down and new cylinders for the $25K repair.
looks like next year we will have to start looking at replacing fabric, we might be able to spread that out over a couple years but looks like another $25k-30k.
Of course we all hear about the $25K+ Annual/repairs, the normal <$3500 Annuals just don't make the conversation..
Brian
CFIG/ASEL
Flyhound
Pre-takeoff checklist
I bought a 180 Hp, 2002 model Maule MX7 in 2013 with 1,000 hours on the engine. I paid ~$100K for the plane back then. At 2400 hours, the engine started making metal, so I bought a rebuilt O-360 from LyCon with the cylinders flowed and ported, the tappets DLC coated and some other engine upgrades. The new engine cost $43K, but puts out 203 Hp on the dyno. I still have less than half of what a new Maule would cost invested and I have a marvelously performing airplane that will last me until I quit flying. With a used plane, you don't get everything perfect on day 1, but you get to fly right away. Ordering a new Maule puts you on a 1 year waiting list (if you are lucky). I assume other aircraft have similar lead times for a new unit. It took me 7 months to get a rebuilt engine for my plane. If you actually want to fly, buy something used and fly it now. I believe you'll come out money ahead and will be able to rack up some great adventures right away. Do be wary of buying hangar or ramp queens. Letting an aircraft engine sit idle for long periods is the worst thing you can do to it, and can easily lead to requiring overhaul before TBO.
Another thing to think about is where plane values have been going. My plane is worth more now than when I bought it. Over the course of my life, I've made more (percentage -wise) buying and selling airplanes than I have with houses. The planes have also been MUCH more fun than a house.
Another thing to think about is where plane values have been going. My plane is worth more now than when I bought it. Over the course of my life, I've made more (percentage -wise) buying and selling airplanes than I have with houses. The planes have also been MUCH more fun than a house.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I've earmarked $15-$20k for the flying budget per year for the past 15 years. That doesn't include acquisition (paid cash) but included EVERYTHING else including databases, insurance, hangar, maintenance, etc...
I haven't gone over $20k yet, and come in under $15k a few times.
(I don't figure an hourly maintenance cost, I just know at some point I may need a new engine, and that money is available if/when needed)
I haven't gone over $20k yet, and come in under $15k a few times.
(I don't figure an hourly maintenance cost, I just know at some point I may need a new engine, and that money is available if/when needed)
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Try going without a house.
Flyhound
Pre-takeoff checklist
I said planes were more fun - not more important. I like having shelter, but my house has never been something I run to for fun. I hate gardening (but I do it), I hate home maintenance (but I do it) and I groan when my property taxes are due (but I pay them). My plane is completely impractical, and unnecessary, but immensely fun. Each and every flight in the 4 planes I've owned over the years has been immensely fun. Nothing has consistently brought as many smiles to my face over the years as flying small planes for the shear joy of it. Aircraft maintenance has never been a pain, because an A&P has to do it, not me. The joy flying small planes has brought me is why I recommended the OP buy a used plane so they can start flying sooner.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
up to 100 and a Comanche.
I don't know about cirrus, but pipers have gotten significantly heavier over the decades. My Lance has a 1500lb useful load; the last Saratogas were usually under 1300. Most makes and models have seen useful load drop 10-20% since the 70's due to plusher interiors and more sound deadening. Just something to look out for when comparing.
Make sure to be looking at the real spec of actual real-world aircraft you would consider buying, because every one is different and always significantly lower than what the spec sheet says. Some types have "sweet spot" years where the gross went up but the weight of the trim bits hadn't yet.
Good point. And don't believe anything until you see it on paper. I flew to Arkansas to look at Cherokee Six that they advertised with a useful load of 1500lb. When I got there, the last w&b was 10 years old, 1420lb, and for the installation of avionics that are no longer in the plane. Their response? "Oh it'll carry anything you get in the door. We just didn't worry about it."
they searched for a current w&b while we went to lunch... no dice. Okay, good luck with your sale. (They sold it a couple days later BTW... market was crazy).Nice thing about cirrus shopping though is that they are pretty standardized and haven't been stc'd all over the place like legacy spam cans. A 2018 sr22t is going to be pretty much identical to any other specs wise. I guess they do have a few options, but I think almost all of them they sell are pretty well loaded.
Looking at Saratoga's...I see an 07 model with a 975lb useful load.
Pinecone
En-Route
You can get an idea by looking at Air Power and seeing what a factory overhaul will run today. A field overhaul will be less, but go up over time.
Taking an O-360 180HP engine, it is about $35,000. With a 2000 hour TBO, that is about $17.50 per hour for the engine overhaul.
My Mooney has a Continental TSIO-360, and a Factory Rebuilt (zero time) is $85,000, so $42.50 per hour. But factory rebuilt comes with a lot of accessories that are new or zero time also.
Thanks to everybody for the clarification about $40/hour being a rule-of-thumb or guideline vs. a figure that could vary based on a number of factors (and I appreciate the suggestions for different methodologies and where to source current maintenance cost info). This place is great! Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
At first, yes. But by 5 years you'll start making some outlays, and by 10 years your expenses will start running about the same as an older plane with a mid-time engine and you'll find yourself replacing a vac pump, an alternator, a starter, mags, a cylinder, etc.
How long will "current" last before you start wanting upgrades? That's mostly a personal thing. I'm perfectly happy flying with steam guages and a 740b, but some people have to have the latest stuff.
People analyze this question to death, and frankly, for most of us airplane ownership doesn't make sense at all when you examine it on a ledger. There are so many unknowns that you might as well use a ouija board. Elsewhere I posted the video about the guy who bought a runout Cherokee 6 and rebuilt the engine, replaced the interior, installed new avionics, etc. Here's the rest of that story:
Personally, it's just something I want to do, so I try to keep it affordable but I don't analyze it any more than I analyze the cost of a child or a pet.
For me, flying (and many other things I've done) is about enjoying the experience; it's not so much about the hardware. Would I be having more fun in a plane that cost 20x what my baby Beech cost me? Maybe a little, but not 20x worth. And I consider the opportunity cost as well. If I shelled out more for the plane than is necessary, there are other things I wouldn't be able to do.
YMMV, but in my world choosing an airplane is no more a purely financial decision than choosing a spouse.
ChopAndDrop
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just recently went through some financial statements for our Ownership partnership, so I can share some real world numbers with you:
This is a Beech Sierra: single engine land, 4 seat, retractable gear airplane, nicely equipped for IFR flying. IO-360 engine 200HP.
Total cost of ownership:
totaling up _all_expenditures_ on the plane (Note1) and for the last 12 months, and dividing that by the 208 hours that the plane flew during that time, leads to an actual expense-to-hour ratio of $148/hour, over the past year.
this is a “Dry Rate” since each pilot buys their own fuel separately. This includes both fixed and variable costs, so if the plane flies less hours this number slightly higher to makeup the fixed costs.
Split it another way, if we ignored the Loan payment (eg we owned the plane outright) and counted all operating expenses (maintenance, hangar, insurance, oil, database subscriptions… everything except fuel) the cost per hour is $120/hour.
Again that is a “dry rate”, so adding fuel burn is approx equivalent to a $180/hr wet rate.
I say this because alot of folks seem to budget the fixed costs of Loan, hangar, insurance, and engine-reserve, then say “I can swing that much per month” but then every few months we get hit with the “stuff broke, everyone pitch-in money again”. (We do not amortize maintenance costs into fixed or hourly charges, just “pay as needed”, which when you add it up, maintenance/repairs is a big part of the expenditures).
Note1: this includes maintenance (the largest part), annual inspection, hangar, insurance, taxes, loan payment, oil, Garmin databases subscription, etc. Everything we’ve ever spent out of the partnership bank account. Does not count engine reserve fund, since that’s a saving for future Maintenance, but these numbers are counting actual Maintenance charges only. Also Not fuel, which each pilot buys on their own.
This is a Beech Sierra: single engine land, 4 seat, retractable gear airplane, nicely equipped for IFR flying. IO-360 engine 200HP.
Total cost of ownership:
totaling up _all_expenditures_ on the plane (Note1) and for the last 12 months, and dividing that by the 208 hours that the plane flew during that time, leads to an actual expense-to-hour ratio of $148/hour, over the past year.
this is a “Dry Rate” since each pilot buys their own fuel separately. This includes both fixed and variable costs, so if the plane flies less hours this number slightly higher to makeup the fixed costs.
Split it another way, if we ignored the Loan payment (eg we owned the plane outright) and counted all operating expenses (maintenance, hangar, insurance, oil, database subscriptions… everything except fuel) the cost per hour is $120/hour.
Again that is a “dry rate”, so adding fuel burn is approx equivalent to a $180/hr wet rate.
I say this because alot of folks seem to budget the fixed costs of Loan, hangar, insurance, and engine-reserve, then say “I can swing that much per month” but then every few months we get hit with the “stuff broke, everyone pitch-in money again”. (We do not amortize maintenance costs into fixed or hourly charges, just “pay as needed”, which when you add it up, maintenance/repairs is a big part of the expenditures).
Note1: this includes maintenance (the largest part), annual inspection, hangar, insurance, taxes, loan payment, oil, Garmin databases subscription, etc. Everything we’ve ever spent out of the partnership bank account. Does not count engine reserve fund, since that’s a saving for future Maintenance, but these numbers are counting actual Maintenance charges only. Also Not fuel, which each pilot buys on their own.
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3G
Depends what you want to consider in the OpEx category, but mag OHs at 500hrs, oil changes at 50hrs, fuel at $6/gal, db updates don’t care how new/old the plane is, they’r just the cost of flying the any plane.
Our experience has been the more (and more frequently) the plane flies, the less intensive our maintenance program ends ups being, but the desire to have the OH reserves grow linearly as hours grow does not subside. This is based on looking at our last 3yrs of 300hr/year operations vs the preceding 3 years at about 200hrs/yr, vs the six years prior to that at right around 100 hrs/yr.
The less hours we put on the plane, the more we spent on maintenance…2 cylinder replacements, alternator replacement,a case crack repair, and a myriad of other little things all happened when we were flying 100hrs/yr or less. The only real wear/tear that increased over that time was tire replacements.
During that same period, we did ADSB & GTN650, then 2x G5s as upgrades as well, but those are one time upgrades, not recurring expenses and aren’t included in my maintenance cost analysis.
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3G
As I posted elsewhere, I did the same.
All in costs for our owned C-172M from 2010-2022 excluding fuel, but inclusive of everything else usually run between $11k - and $15k; the hangar is a community hangar.
Our outlier years have been $17K (case repair & jug), $24K (ADSB), and $32K (G5s) all in, and we usually do our own oil changes.
Don’t know the numbers for a payment, but that would be additive to the above. Hourly amortization makes it look cheap, because $200K/2300hrs turns out to be $87/hr all in, dry.