Owners to Non Owners

MDeitch1976

MDeitch1976

Line Up and Wait
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Apr 10, 2012
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575
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Maryland
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MattCanFly
I am always looking(dreaming) about buying an airplane. On Ebay I found what seems to be a good deal in my opinion. As a hypothetical situation of purchasing this. What would someone really be looking at paying for this? What sort of pros and cons? If four to six people were to co-own and set up an LLC, would it be worth it? How easy is it really to establish co ownership, and maintain it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rest...739195?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item2c68daedbb

I look forward to what people have to say. No opinion will go unnoticed.
 
Without going too much into the issue of value, this seems generally a good "starter" plane for a new owner. The only real concern I have are that it isn't clear how old the engine is, or how long since that major overhaul, no less the top overhaul. The price seems a tad on the low side if it's got a good engine, so I'd look hard at that, because overhauling a 6-cylinder Continental costs a couple-three thousand more than a Lycoming of the same power (i.e., Cont O-300 vs Lyc O-320).

This is certainly an easy plane to own and maintain, which is why I say it's a good choice as a first plane if it suits your needs. Note that it isn't a true 4-seater -- more of a 3-adult or 2+2 with kids in the back. Also, it's not a standard 6-pack panel, and the radios are a bit dated, but still perfectly fine for instrument training and routine IFR flying once you get that rating.

To learn more about what it would cost to own and operate a plane like this (beyond the initial purchase price), email* me for a copy of a paper I wrote on the subject. For more on shared ownership, see the AOPA's excellent guide on that at http://www.aopa.org/members/files/guides/multiple.html. And an LLC is an excellent structure for a 4-6 owner deal like that -- contact an aviation attorney in your state to talk about the details of setting one up. The chanpters on liability, forming and operating a business, insurance, and buying/selling aircraft in J. Scott Hamilton's book "Practical Aviation Law (4th ed.)" would also make excellent reading -- about $40 delivered from a range of internet booksellers, and well worth it.

* Emails only, please -- no PM's, posts, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves, thank you.
 
davidm767 said:
Check this out:

http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=5705003&tid=GLSPPT1221&cm_mmc

Its got a few days left. But it may be a great time to jump into something thats below market value.
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Another perfectly good first ownership airplane, although the 12,000 hours on the airframe might cause someone to want to look very hard for "aging aircraft" fatigue issues. OTOH, the fact that it's been owned and operated by an Air Force Aero Club suggests the maintenance has been very good.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
I am always looking(dreaming) about buying an airplane. On Ebay I found what seems to be a good deal in my opinion. As a hypothetical situation of purchasing this. What would someone really be looking at paying for this? What sort of pros and cons? If four to six people were to co-own and set up an LLC, would it be worth it? How easy is it really to establish co ownership, and maintain it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rest...739195?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item2c68daedbb

I look forward to what people have to say. No opinion will go unnoticed.
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I'm hardly an expert but the engine looks really dirty, and the harness and slick mag that I can see looks really old, but he says replaced 100hrs ago -- was that 100 hours ago in 95?
 
I question this logbook entry... Especially the phrasing of "This Engine Installed..."

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Was a 1400 hr used engine installed on this aircraft in place of another one? If yes to that, then definitely more detail is needed.

Aircraft looks decent cosmetically, but likely more deeper inspection is warranted before you burn too much time/money.
 

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AggieMike88 said:
I question this logbook entry... Especially the phrasing of "This Engine Installed..."

attachment.php



Was a 1400 hr used engine installed on this aircraft in place of another one?
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That's exactly what it says. One would like to see the preceding pages in this engine log to find out more about the engine's history, not to mention the preceding pages in the airframe log to see what happened to the old engine (collapsed nose gear/prop strike?), but that's not a showstopper at this point, especially at this price.
 
Hi Matt.

The C-172 is a great airplane as is the Piper. Either would work. This seems pretty cheap for a C-172, so I am a little suspicious. Co-ownership is great if the co-owners all get along and are reasonable about how they want to use, maintain or upgrade the airplane. That being said, there is nothing like being a sole owner (including when a big item needs to be fixed :(. Although I am a sole owner, my thinking is that co-ownership with one or two others would be next down the list and a club after that. Just my $0.02 worth. These are probably in order of cost also.
 
Anyone notice the chrome cylinders? on 1400 + engine !

Not a good starter unless you like doing overhauls in the near future.
 
This is all helpful. And, really starting to help me grasp the things I need to look at.
This is reminiscent of going with my Dad to buy my first vehicle(used) from a car dealership. You can not just hop right into doing it. I want to research the buying and owning, before jumping into owning. I don't want to get a good deal, on a high maintenance aircraft.
If and when I buy, I would like something to build time in, as well as start building some XC time.

How much time do people spend on Preventative MX, and keeping clean?
 
Ron Levy said:
That's exactly what it says. One would like to see the preceding pages in this engine log to find out more about the engine's history, not to mention the preceding pages in the airframe log to see what happened to the old engine (collapsed nose gear/prop strike?), but that's not a showstopper at this point, especially at this price.
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It doesn't make a hoot what the prior pages say, the engine has 1400+ hours and Chrome cylinders 500 hours ago.

I wouldn't touch that aircraft unless I wanted it ti upgrade to a 180 horse.
 
I'd pass on the Warrior. Almost 12,000 hrs on the airframe. It's been a rental/trainer most of its life. Now the C-172? If I was in the market for one I'd definitely look at it. It's no cream puff but for the "buy it now price" it sure looks like she's worth more than that. Nice paint, interior, decent eng times and comp. Yep, I'd look into that one. :)
 
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davidm767 said:
Check this out:

http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=5705003&tid=GLSPPT1221&cm_mmc

Its got a few days left. But it may be a great time to jump into something thats below market value.
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setting up the co-ownership is an easy do.

But did you notice the log entries? they are having nose gear shimmy problems, they have already serviced the shimmy dampener, and replaced the drag link bolts, and I'll bet it still shimmies. aand it will require a nose strut overhaul to get it to quit. 5000+ time takes its toll.

it has a 1400 + engine that was Topped with chrome cylinders 600 hours ago, I'll bet you are looking at a new set of cylinders to stop the high oil consumption. $6k now for ECIs plus labor.

the radios are junk.

by the time you get 5 guys happy with it, you could have bought this one.

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/Vi...rue&IsInternal=True&searchId=858234&dealerid=
 
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Tom-D said:
It doesn't make a hoot what the prior pages say, the engine has 1400+ hours and Chrome cylinders 500 hours ago.

I wouldn't touch that aircraft unless I wanted it ti upgrade to a 180 horse.
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Can you please elaborate?
What is typical Overhaul time? What would a mid level overhaul cost? Issue with Chrome cylinders 500 hours ago?
 
MDeitch1976 said:
Can you please elaborate?
What is typical Overhaul time? What would a mid level overhaul cost? Issue with Chrome cylinders 500 hours ago?
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The issue with chrome cylinders is, they wear out rings in 500 hours.

typical overhaul time is about 1800 hours on the 0-300-? it really doesn't matter what the manufacturer's service letter says. and the latest overhaul numbers are at 20k for a new limits over haul.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
What would a mid level overhaul cost?
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There is no such thing, read FAR 43.2

Continental has changed the wording in their overhaul manual to say that you can't call a Continental overhauled unless you provide new accessories. Price just jumped big time.
 
Irish_Armada said:
That plane looks great, but being 245 hours away from TBO,
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That engine was a new engine when the aircraft was built. I'd expect to go beyond TBO, by 500 hours.

But you never know, any engine could fail at any time. It isn't a matter of numbers, it's a matter of material condition and engine trends, and this model of engine is as bullet proof as any.

The 0-300 has a history of a really solid lower end, but cylinders were at one time very costly and no one was building new, so we had the cylinders chromed back to standard and used new pistons of standard size and cast iron rings, cast iron is soft, and wears quickly, it is a very well documented problem.

Plus the high airframe time on your e-bay aircraft scares me.

never send a pilot to buy an aircraft, they will buy paint and radios.
never send a mechanic to buy an aircraft, they will buy their 401k retirement account.
 
Looks at least $3K overpriced to me, even if the engine checks out, which I have my doubts. You can do better.
 
Tom-D said:
There is no such thing, read FAR 43.2

Continental has changed the wording in their overhaul manual to say that you can't call a Continental overhauled unless you provide new accessories. Price just jumped big time.
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Mini thread hijack--my apologies. What would an O-300 out of a 172 cost to overhaul these days, just roughly? All included, best case and worst case scenarios? Give or take, of course. "It depends" is an incorrect answer even though I know it's true :).
 
jpower said:
Mini thread hijack--my apologies. What would an O-300 out of a 172 cost to overhaul these days, just roughly? All included, best case and worst case scenarios? Give or take, of course. "It depends" is an incorrect answer even though I know it's true :).
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Advertised prices run around $16,500 to $17,000. Add to that the cost of removal and reinstallation by your local mech. Beware of lowballers where there is a lot which costs extra.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Uh, is it just me, or does $12,700 seem a wee bit low for an overhaul of an O-300???
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Way low. Six new cylinder assemblies alone run over half that total. There's gotta be something they're not doing which the majority of big engine shops do. Find out what that is before you buy from them.
 
"A certified unit" just means a reground to within spec cam....and crank for that matter. Nothing wrong with that.

You are guaranteed three of six cylinders wil be reworked. If more are needed, you pay. So the price is really ~$3,500 higher if you want new cylinders. They'll reuse pistons if they pass minimum spec.

It's typical bottom bid overhaul.

I might do that if I had two normally aspirated engines. But if it's my only one.....labor costs alone in the field will eatup any difference.
 
Ron Levy said:
Advertised prices run around $16,500 to $17,000. Add to that the cost of removal and reinstallation by your local mech. Beware of lowballers where there is a lot which costs extra.
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How much does removal/reinstall cost?

I guess my question is thus: Say I had an airplane (I don't, quite clearly). One day it needs a new engine. I say the incantations to summon the mechanic, and * poof * the engine in the airplane is overhauled such that it (in theory) shouldn't need another overhaul until around its TBO (or well after if we get lucky). How much does that whole process cost?
 
Well I need to shop around because my mech just quoted me at 26 grand for an IO-360 overhaul by some shop in ATL. That doesn't even include taking the engine off and sending it out. No way I'm spending that much. :nonod:
 
Ron Levy said:
Advertised prices run around $16,500 to $17,000. Add to that the cost of removal and reinstallation by your local mech. Beware of lowballers where there is a lot which costs extra.
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You are about a year late on pricing.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I need to shop around because my mech just quoted me at 26 grand for an IO-360 overhaul by some shop in ATL. That doesn't even include taking the engine off and sending it out. No way I'm spending that much. :nonod:
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An IO-360 is a whole 'nother story. For whatever reason, fuel injection seems to add a lot to the overhaul bill, and larger cylinders cost more.

As for removal/reinstallation, I'd budget at least $1000, plus whatever it takes to clean up the engine compartment. You're probably going to be replacing a lot of oil and fuel hoses, too. Don't figure any less than $2000 for the work on your end. All things considered, I'd use $20,000 soup-to-nuts as my budgeting figure for a 150-180 HP carbureted engine overhaul process, and it might be a bit higher for a 6-cylinder engine than a 4-cylinder engine.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Way low. Six new cylinder assemblies alone run over half that total. There's gotta be something they're not doing which the majority of big engine shops do. Find out what that is before you buy from them.
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Correct, he's not charging you for stuff you don't need. That includes removal and install. The page I posted outlines what's included in a basic overhaul and he'll let you chose what you want to do above and beyond that.
 
bartmc said:
Correct, he's not charging you for stuff you don't need. That includes removal and install. The page I posted outlines what's included in a basic overhaul and he'll let you chose what you want to do above and beyond that.
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Apparently he has not read the Continental service letter on TBO

quote
Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) and the aircraft manufacturers provide operational limitations and instructions for your engine along with the requirements for continued airworthiness as specified in the engine Operators, Maintenance and Overhaul Manuals and Service Bulletins. The Time Between Engine Overhaul (TBO) provided in this Service Information Letter apply only to engines that have been operated and maintained in accordance with these instructions. Engine mounted components and accessories require overhaul at the same hourly and calendar intervals as the engine, unless otherwise specified by the component or accessory manufacturer.

the overhaul manual requires us to comply with all service instructions during overhaul.
 
bartmc said:
Correct, he's not charging you for stuff you don't need. That includes removal and install. The page I posted outlines what's included in a basic overhaul and he'll let you chose what you want to do above and beyond that.
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Compare that list to what you get from Lycoming, TCM, Zephyr, Victor, Lycon, Precision, or any other well-known, good reputation shop. Then ask someone who really knows whether that "above and beyond" the place Rusty mentioned doesn't do is unnecessary or not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Way low. Six new cylinder assemblies alone run over half that total. There's gotta be something they're not doing which the majority of big engine shops do. Find out what that is before you buy from them.
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how much are overhauled cylinders ?
 
jpower said:
How much does removal/reinstall cost?

I guess my question is thus: Say I had an airplane (I don't, quite clearly). One day it needs a new engine. I say the incantations to summon the mechanic, and * poof * the engine in the airplane is overhauled such that it (in theory) shouldn't need another overhaul until around its TBO (or well after if we get lucky). How much does that whole process cost?
Click to expand...

$12,700 if the engine is good you fly it to them and everything can be put back in within spec that can legally be put back in, you pick it up and fly it back home. Now, if you sling a rod and need them to come to you, pull the engine, need new cases, new cylinders, new crank, new cam, then have them take it back to the airport and re-install it... double that price.

This is sort of like asking. How much does a plane cost?
 
bartmc said:
$12,700 if the engine is good you fly it to them and everything can be put back in within spec that can legally be put back in, you pick it up and fly it back home. Now, if you sling a rod and need them to come to you, pull the engine, need new cases, new cylinders, new crank, new cam, then have them take it back to the airport and re-install it... double that price.

This is sort of like asking. How much does a plane cost?
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FAR 43.2 doesn't require they replace anything.
 
Tom-D said:
he may and it is legal.
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It may be legal, but it is penny-wise/pound-foolish. The odds of a cylinder overhauled more than once making it even close to TBO are very slim. Ask anyone who overhauls engines as their primary livelihood about that. You can start with Bill Scott at Precision Engine Owensboro KY about that. I think Charlie Melot at Zephyr Engines will say the same. You can overhaul them once, but after that, odds are you'll develop cracks during subsequent runs. The problem is that there are no attached records telling you how many times a particular cylinder has been overhauled, so unless that cylinder has been with that engine since the cylinder was new, you have no idea how many times it's been overhauled.
 
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Ron Levy said:
It may be legal, but it is penny-wise/pound-foolish. The odds of a cylinder overhauled more than once making it even close to TBO are very slim. Ask anyone who overhauls engines as their primary livelihood about that. You can start with Bill Scott at Precision Engine Owensboro KY about that. I think Charlie Melot at Zephyr Engines will say the same.
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The guy doing the 14k overhaul doesn't care if it penny smart, I'd be happy to do what he does for 14k.

The Navy called it PAR when we were in the service, "paint and return".
 
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