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Pjsmith

Pjsmith

Line Up and Wait
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pjsmith
My sister and I just purchased a plane together. I am a newly minted ppl, and she's a 20 hr student. The plan was for me to build time and go after the instrument ticket, and her to finish the pp in our plane. She was using the same CFI that I had, and the plan was working very well.

So, of course, some freakin' thing had to screw it up.

The CFI gets a new job as a transport pilot, and jumps at it, meanwhile - and understandably - leaving my sister in the dust.

This seems like the perfect time to have her start training at the airport where the plane is hangared (long story, but we couldn't keep the a/c at the airport where I trained and my sister is training currently). 2 of 3 CFIs at new airport decline to teach students in their own plane, claiming liability issues. Third is 'thinking about it'. Obviously, this causes some problems.

Has anyone run into this before. I've thought quite a bit about it, and looked through the FARs and can't figure out what 'liability' these people might be worried about that isn't covered by adequate insurance (we have it, and they have their own CFI policies too). But what do I know, I've only been practicing law for a dozen years.

Is this simply an attempt to steer students to flight line rentals? Any idea where to find a good instructor in McHenry County, Illinois who would not have a problem teaching in the student's ac? Any tips would be appreciated.
 
Pjsmith said:
Is this simply an attempt to steer students to flight line rentals? Any idea where to find a good instructor in McHenry County, Illinois who would not have a problem teaching in the student's ac? Any tips would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I think your last paragraph probably covers the situation at hand. FBO(s), apparently, have varying policies. I've not had a similar problem with my own plane in Maine where we're all sane for all to gain. My problem has been that a community of the independent CFI are attached to either the Naval Air Station Brunswick, or Army National Guard/Bangor; and during the last bunch of years said personnel are prone to get assigned to hot spots in the world. That can screw up a student's program when having to switch to a replacement CFI. Best of luck to you.

HR
 
I have never heard of this before. If those CFI's were here they would be SOL, there are no rental planes. Most pilots here add the CFI as a named pilot on the insurance policy.
Where are you from St. Louis?
There are several CFI's that fly out of St. Charles that will instruct in your airplane.
 
Some, if not all, companies specifically exclude flight schools, USAIG for example. Which means that either the instructor or the school has to have coverage. I've known individual CFIs who have their own coverage (even when they teach at a school as well), and some schools, for example the one here at N99, maintain coverage so it's not an issua here.

So you either need to find a individual CFI with insurance, or a school which has it.

The school here btw charges an extra $10/hr if the instruction is in a non-school a/c.
 
Just search for another CFI. I had no problem signing up with any CFI at my home base and I only paid the hourly rate for the instructor, i.e. what they added over the cost of a rented plane. In fact, they encouraged me to train in my own plane.

Your plane is at an airport other than the one where you two are training? If your CFI has left and they won't train in your plane then maybe that airport ISN'T the one where you're training is it? What else exactly would be keeping you there?

I might have missed it, but why couldn't you train from the airport where you hangar your plane?

Otherwise, it really is supposed to be a competitive business. Look for nearby CFIs at http://www.beapilot.com or http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/school/index.cfm

Good luck!
 
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PJ,
I am a CFI out of the Peoria area (KPIA, 3MY, KCTK) and if you were not 3+ hours away, I'd do it for sure! If the plane is insured, and the CFI is listed as an additional insured, I don't get what those dudes were thinking.... Must be trying to get you to rent. The way I understand it, from an insurance perspective, the PIC has the liability for the flight but if they are insured on your policy, then they are covered. Like everyone said, just get a CFI and name him/her as additional insured on your policy.
Sometimes flight schools won't let their instructors do any "freelance" work. There is a local outfit like that, but I won't work for them anytime in the near future. Too much of "the man" in business models like that, and it leaves no room for the "little" people like you (and me) that help make aviation great.
You can PM me if you want to chat more.
--Matt Rogers
 
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My flight school has ZERO problems with training in student owned planes so long as the paperwork is right.

They do charge $5 dollars more an hour for the instructor though ($35 instead of $30). LOL
 
It may or may not be a liability issue...in MN, simply naming the instructor on your insurance policy doesn't mean that the insurance company can't subrogate against them in the event of an accident...it merely means that YOU are covered when the CFI is PIC.

Also, teaching in your airplane requires them to learn another airplane and/or its specific equipment. That's more work for them, on their own time. Not something ANYONE (CFI;s included) are prone to do. Additionally, not learning this stuff probably increases CFI liability by increasing the potential for them to do/teach something stupid that causes an accident.

Fly safe! (and good luck)

David
 
The rogue said:
The way I understand it, from an insurance perspective, the PIC has the liability for the flight but if they are insured on your policy, then they are covered. Like everyone said, just get a CFI and name him/her as additional insured on your policy.
Click to expand...

First, the CFI is the legal PIC for the everything but the solo flights (the OP's sister is working on her PPL). Second, I will absolutely guarantee that the aircraft policy reads "business & pleasure" which means that the policy coverage specifically excludes any commercial activity, i.e. flight instruction. IOW, the CFI isn't covered as a named pilot or even if listed as an additional insured. Read the fine print, consult whatever experts you need, but that's the reading on every aircraft policy I've ever held.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
First, the CFI is the legal PIC for the everything but the solo flights (the OP's sister is working on her PPL). Second, I will absolutely guarantee that the aircraft policy reads "business & pleasure" which means that the policy coverage specifically excludes any commercial activity, i.e. flight instruction. IOW, the CFI isn't covered as a named pilot or even if listed as an additional insured. Read the fine print, consult whatever experts you need, but that's the reading on every aircraft policy I've ever held.
Click to expand...
That's my reading as well, Ed...
 
Been over that route, Commercial exclusion, does not include flight or profiency training for a legal owner of the aircraft, does not allow the training of non-owners. does however allow for the training of a flight instructor to train the owners of the airplane.

Plus the CFI is legal PIC for the PPL student at all times that she operates the airplane, whether he is on the aircraft or not.

All policies that list a CFI as named, will cover the CFI for all activites that the owners are covered for.
 
wesleyj said:
All policies that list a CFI as named, will cover the CFI for all activites that the owners are covered for.
Click to expand...
Define "covered"...the insurance policy protects the person paying the premiums, IOW, the owner. I've been told that in some states, a "named" pilot cannot be subrogated against. I've also been told that in some states (particularly the one I'm in), the named pilot CAN be subrogated against by the insurance company.

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
Define "covered"...the insurance policy protects the person paying the premiums, IOW, the owner. I've been told that in some states, a "named" pilot cannot be subrogated against. I've also been told that in some states (particularly the one I'm in), the named pilot CAN be subrogated against by the insurance company.

David
Click to expand...

According to my lawyer, at least in the 2 states that I normally instruct, as long as the PIC, is either a named pilot, or meets the established minimums as required in the insurance and is lawfully operating the aircraft, no subrogation against him is possible. I have done checkouts for owners to satisfy insurance requirements in Be-18s, in Al, Tx, Ok, Ne, Ut,Nv, Mo, Oh, Pa and Ny, the only problem state was NY, they apparently allow subrogation, we were able to circumvent that because i was functioning as an insurance company approved check pilot.
 
Pjsmith said:
My sister and I just purchased a plane together. I am a newly minted ppl, and she's a 20 hr student. The plan was for me to build time and go after the instrument ticket, and her to finish the pp in our plane. She was using the same CFI that I had, and the plan was working very well.

So, of course, some freakin' thing had to screw it up.

The CFI gets a new job as a transport pilot, and jumps at it, meanwhile - and understandably - leaving my sister in the dust.

This seems like the perfect time to have her start training at the airport where the plane is hangared (long story, but we couldn't keep the a/c at the airport where I trained and my sister is training currently). 2 of 3 CFIs at new airport decline to teach students in their own plane, claiming liability issues. Third is 'thinking about it'. Obviously, this causes some problems.

Has anyone run into this before. I've thought quite a bit about it, and looked through the FARs and can't figure out what 'liability' these people might be worried about that isn't covered by adequate insurance (we have it, and they have their own CFI policies too). But what do I know, I've only been practicing law for a dozen years.

Is this simply an attempt to steer students to flight line rentals? Any idea where to find a good instructor in McHenry County, Illinois who would not have a problem teaching in the student's ac? Any tips would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Wow 3 intructors at Galt, I thought there was only one, Jamie.

But to your point, yes I have run into this before. When I first bought my warrior I wanted to spend sometime with instructors that were familair with that plane to give me some extra training. I had been spending all of my recent time in 172s and thought it would be a good idea to do something a little more focused. So I went over to 3CK were one of the FBOs there flies Warriors. Long story short they would not do any training in my plane. I could rent theirs but why would I do that?? They claimed some sort of insurance thing but I called my insurance company, USAIG at the time, and they said I was covered. Oh well that FBO's loss, I went accross the street to NIFC which was happy to train in my plane.

So I am not sure you want to have to fly down to 3CK to do your training but you could at least talk to their instructors and see if they want to meet you up at Galt. One guy, Shane, would probably be up for a little freelancing.
 
BTW PJ I was up at the airport today and the yellow Xs are off of the runway. It looks like they finsihed all the paving and reopened. The strips will need to be down and that it'll shut it down for a day I am sure. Joe was not around to ask when that was going to happen. I am going up again tomorrow to wash and wax. If you head up stop by, I am in hanger A5.
 
wesleyj said:
According to my lawyer, at least in the 2 states that I normally instruct, as long as the PIC, is either a named pilot, or meets the established minimums as required in the insurance and is lawfully operating the aircraft, no subrogation against him is possible. I have done checkouts for owners to satisfy insurance requirements in Be-18s, in Al, Tx, Ok, Ne, Ut,Nv, Mo, Oh, Pa and Ny, the only problem state was NY, they apparently allow subrogation, we were able to circumvent that because i was functioning as an insurance company approved check pilot.
Click to expand...
I was told that here in MN, I have to be named AND obtain a waiver of hull subrogation from the owner's insurance company, so I guess I'd add MN to your list of problem states ;)

Do you get to THA for the convention, John?

Fly safe!

David
 
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Why is it so hard for a CFI to get insurance to cover himself? Is it that expensive to be an insured CFI?
 
Ed Guthrie said:
First, the CFI is the legal PIC for the everything but the solo flights (the OP's sister is working on her PPL). Second, I will absolutely guarantee that the aircraft policy reads "business & pleasure" which means that the policy coverage specifically excludes any commercial activity, i.e. flight instruction. IOW, the CFI isn't covered as a named pilot or even if listed as an additional insured. Read the fine print, consult whatever experts you need, but that's the reading on every aircraft policy I've ever held.
Click to expand...
In may case, I think either the CFI's ($$$!) personal insurance and/or the FBO's insurance covered the CFI and the FBO.
 
Some policies have minimum age requirements (16) so best check that too.

All our instructors will teach in rentals or own a/c.
 
SkyHog said:
Why is it so hard for a CFI to get insurance to cover himself? Is it that expensive to be an insured CFI?
Click to expand...
It's not hard, and it's not excessively expensive, but it creates a negative cash flow unless you do a fair amount of instructing.

Fly safe!

David
 
Whether or not subrogation is allowed by the owner's insurer, the independent CFI instructing an owner in the owner's plane is liable for any damages to third parties even if the owner is covered by the insurance. For that reason, the independent CFI must have his own third-party liability coverage if he is not a named insured (not just named pilot) on the owner's policy. Flight school CFI's are covered when they instruct (as flight school instructors, not on the side) by the flight school's policy, but an independent CFI like me needs his own policy -- I got mine through NAFI.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whether or not subrogation is allowed by the owner's insurer, the independent CFI instructing an owner in the owner's plane is liable for any damages to third parties even if the owner is covered by the insurance. For that reason, the independent CFI must have his own third-party liability coverage if he is not a named insured (not just named pilot) on the owner's policy. Flight school CFI's are covered when they instruct (as flight school instructors, not on the side) by the flight school's policy, but an independent CFI like me needs his own policy -- I got mine through NAFI.
Click to expand...

I second this! The school that I instruct at allows us to instruct in owner planes, but the company has to be named on the insurance. We also have to bill for training through the school.
 
I carried CFI insurance from AOPA my first year of instructing, then i figured that i wasnt doing enough instructing to make it worth it. When I spent a months or more salary for insurance i decided I would just take on the risk. Most of the stuff I do is through the flight school anyway and I am covered by them. Every now and then I do some independent stuff and take the risk. It helps that I hardly have any assets.
 
tonycondon said:
I carried CFI insurance from AOPA my first year of instructing, then i figured that i wasnt doing enough instructing to make it worth it. When I spent a months or more salary for insurance i decided I would just take on the risk. Most of the stuff I do is through the flight school anyway and I am covered by them. Every now and then I do some independent stuff and take the risk. It helps that I hardly have any assets.
Click to expand...
Do you have future earning potential?
 
alaskaflyer said:
Do you have future earning potential?
Click to expand...

It does not matter if he does.

Look....why do so many people, whenever an insurance thread comes up, talk about "possible this" and "maybe that".

We all have to make sacrifices/risk decisions everyday. Many, many, many of us cannot have it all...i.e. we learn to fly without insurance, or we get insurance and do not fly; CFI's instruct without their own personal insurance, or they sacrifice a TON of money every month to have it and wonder what the justification is.

YES something really bad can happen to cause you to have major issues in your life if something goes wrong. However we all play "averages" everyday...and while it is desirable to take a long perspective on your life on somethings, if we all worried about what could happen, how we are covered if something does happen, etc. then most of us would never get out of bed, let alone toss the dock lines and sail around the world, or climb mountains, or jump out of planes, or fly them for that matter.
 
Thanks Tom, hit the nail on the head as far as my thoughts. I really dont see myself as a lucrative target for being sued for damages, compared to the owners of the aircraft, aircraft manufacturers, etc. Im not going to worry about it for now. Maybe when I am realizing that future earning potential it will make financial sense to dump the money into CFI insurance.
 
tonycondon said:
Thanks Tom, hit the nail on the head as far as my thoughts. I really dont see myself as a lucrative target for being sued for damages, compared to the owners of the aircraft, aircraft manufacturers, etc. Im not going to worry about it for now. Maybe when I am realizing that future earning potential it will make financial sense to dump the money into CFI insurance.
Click to expand...
That's fine, certainly your choice, but don't think for a second that because you "have no assets" that you aren't swinging in the wind. It is certainly your right to do so though.

I have two friends that "had no assets" as young men - all three of us working together - and they both made a terrible mistake in their lives - in a flash everything changed. Their "lack of assets" didn't keep the court from assessing their future earning potential and giving a portion of their income every month to a piece of human garbage who chose to sue them anyway back then despite the fact they owned basically nothing.

que sera sera is one way to live, that's true.
 
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RE: CFI coverage in Owner-supplied aircraft.

Just a couple hours earlier I spoke with my ins agent regarding this very same subject. His response was that as long as the CFI is additionally named, the CFI is covered for all training purposes in my plane. No increase in premiums and can be binded immediately. I hold in my hand a faxed copy containing that exact verbage.

What is not covered is training on non-owner persons. But that could be added at a later date, if so desired.

Just have the CFI named as additionally insured rather than, additional pilot. Speak with your ins agent for further explanation. Subrogation is a whole 'nother topic; consult your agent.
 
Richard said:
RE: CFI coverage in Owner-supplied aircraft.

Just a couple hours earlier I spoke with my ins agent regarding this very same subject. His response was that as long as the CFI is additionally named, the CFI is covered for all training purposes in my plane. No increase in premiums and can be binded immediately. I hold in my hand a faxed copy containing that exact verbage.

What is not covered is training on non-owner persons. But that could be added at a later date, if so desired.

Just have the CFI named as additionally insured rather than, additional pilot. Speak with your ins agent for further explanation. Subrogation is a whole 'nother topic; consult your agent.
Click to expand...
While that works to protect the CFI, it also effectively cuts the owner's liability coverage in half, since the policy limit remains the same but it is now covering both the owner and the CFI. This is not a good deal for the owner.
 
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