So at an airport a while ago, I was on the ground and saw a Piper Cub in the pattern overtaken by a Velocity. The Velocity pilot just zoomed right around the Cub to pass. What is the right thing to do if behind a slower airplane?
overtaking slow planes in the pattern
- Thread starter bluee
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'Each aircraft being overtaken has the right of way, each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter his course to the right'.
Now, the problem is that you are not allowed to make right turns in the pattern but in a typical left pattern, you can fly outside of the slowpoke and if you can get around fast enough to line up on final before him, you have the right of way for your landing.
There is no FAR against being a jerk.
Now, the problem is that you are not allowed to make right turns in the pattern but in a typical left pattern, you can fly outside of the slowpoke and if you can get around fast enough to line up on final before him, you have the right of way for your landing.
There is no FAR against being a jerk.
tangopapa
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ain't that the truth.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
The 'right' thing to do would be for the faster plane to make a break off to the right(left pattern), and rejoin the pattern from the 45 entry. Maybe just a large right 360 would suffice in a slow area.
Well that's what I thought, I just wanted to hear from others. It hasn't come up with me personally, but flying around a slower plane seemed like a jerky thing to do.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think a Cub would normally be flying a tight pattern, so maybe one option would be for the faster plane to fly a wider pattern and a long downwind to give the Cub time to land.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Perhaps the Velocity should have been flying a wider pattern, since it has more glide than a Cub. Can't blame him that much though. Velocity's stall speed is probably faster than the Cub can go in level flight. Heck, might be faster than the Cub can go period.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Explain your reference as to that being the "right thing to do" if you don't mind. If the Velocity passed on the right and remained clear, that is about all he is required to do.
I have flown the Pitts plenty of times in the pattern while sharing it with a Cub. You are talking about a 60 knot difference in the approach speed a lone. There has to be a way for these two aircraft to coexist. In the Cub I fly a much tighter pattern and usually never go to a 1000' TPA because there is no time. In the Pitts you fly a tight pattern because it doesn't glide for crap. I would have no problem with somebody passing me in the Pattern while I was flying the Cub if it was done properly.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Well, there are lots of asswhizes out there who would just blow by. The OP asked about a Velocity passing a Cub in the pattern. I'm no fount of aviation rectitude, but if the Cub was in the pattern, and the Velocity can't slow down to that speed, my opinion in is the Velocity should get out and rejoin. Not sure what is complicated.
If the Velocity passes, on the right, the Cub is focused out the left side of the plane(left pattern), the Cub makes a base turn, descends and the Velocity makes his base turn, I can see where there is now a conflict. However, if the Velocity gets out and goes around to the right, when he rejoins there is much less chance of a conflict.
You wanna justify passing in the pattern, I'm out.
I have flown in the pattern with ANG learjets doing touch+goes. They are faster but just fly a wider pattern.
There is no prohibition against passing someone in the pattern, as long as you dont interfere with his flight path.
There is no prohibition against passing someone in the pattern, as long as you dont interfere with his flight path.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow, the pilot of the RV had nothing to do with it? The RV just took control over the pilot and cut you off?
Damn RV's.
I don't see an issue.. The Velocity passed on the right, as required... They obviously didn't collide in mid air or the title of this thread would different.. I bet the Velocity flew an extended downwind, that let the cub land and the faster plane landed last ?
..Ps... personally, I LOVE the look of a Velocity.. If I was 10 years younger, there would be one being built in my shop right now..
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't see an issue.. The Velocity passed on the right, as required... They obviously didn't collide in mid air or the title of this thread would different.. I bet the Velocity flew an extended downwind, that let the cub land and the faster plane landed last ?
Ps... personally, I LOVE the look of a Velocity.. If I was 10 years younger, there would be one being built in my shop right now..
The stall speed on a Velocity is pretty high. Maybe the guy needed to land?
OP do you know if the pilot of the Velocity was talking to the slower plane? On the ground you have no idea if they are talking to each other and the slow plane agreed. I let people in all the time, especially the jump plane. Those guys are on the clock and I'm just goofing usually.
Mtns2Skies
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Mtns2Skies
When flying the Citabria if there was someone flying an abnormally wide pattern, the CFI would have me cut them off by turning it into a wheelie landing and just diving for the runway when abeam the numbers. I would say there was adequate spacing and yes it may have been a jerk move but man sometimes people fly WIDE patterns!
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
If it were me in the faster airplane I'd just fly a bigger pattern to avoid passing the slow one unless the Cub was flying a bomber circuit in which case I'd fly a tighter one and land ahead of the Cub if I could make it work.
When I fly my taildragger (60 mph on downwind, 50 mph in the climb) I find I can usually beat other traffic in the pattern by flying close in on all legs and many of them are going twice as fast in the air.
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Velocity173
That was me. I don't have time to be messing around behind some ugly yellow high wing with no radios. Got places to be and people to meet.
That was me. I don't have time to be messing around behind some ugly yellow high wing with no radios. Got places to be and people to meet.
:wink2:
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
That was me. I don't have time to be messing around behind some ugly yellow high wing with no radios. Got places to be and people to meet.
So does your Velocity have a Mondrian paint scheme?
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Velocity173
Sorry, I had to go look up what Mondrian was. No, it doesn't look like a flying Rubik's Cube. You can see on my profile pic it uses the typical "swoopy wave" motif. I would say almost anti-Mondrian if you will.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
I've been in the pattern with a cub while I was in the Mooney. I went around to the right and was turning base before he was abeam the numbers, and I was touching down by the time he turned (a fairly close) base.
I don't see any harm in passing someone if there's a marked difference in speed, that's why the overtaking rules exist.
Now, with a small difference (say for the mooney and a 172), I'd just slow down.
I don't see any harm in passing someone if there's a marked difference in speed, that's why the overtaking rules exist.
Now, with a small difference (say for the mooney and a 172), I'd just slow down.
comanchepilot
En-Route
I suppose if the pattern is 800AGL and you are 1500AGL - pass him, then cut power and land - technically you are not in the pattern. . .
I'm not seeing the problem here - if he passes him wing tip to wing tip then there is the startle factor - but if he steps right, announces, passes and continues 20 knots faster - what the big deal? its not like he's ever gonna be in the guys way.
Its why I get offered a departure in a Comanche before the guy in the 152 even if he calls ready immediately before me - its more efficient at a busy airport. I'm out of 5000 by the time the 152 reaches pattern altitude. . .
I'm not seeing the problem here - if he passes him wing tip to wing tip then there is the startle factor - but if he steps right, announces, passes and continues 20 knots faster - what the big deal? its not like he's ever gonna be in the guys way.
Its why I get offered a departure in a Comanche before the guy in the 152 even if he calls ready immediately before me - its more efficient at a busy airport. I'm out of 5000 by the time the 152 reaches pattern altitude. . .
aviatingfool
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aviatingfool
HEY, I resemble that......
Sorry to hear a canard was a jerk. Most of us aren't. We may not care for cyber gang bullying - but we aren't jerks. Usually swing way out wide in the pattern or simply do a 360 for spacing, and announce it, traffic permitting. Happens a lot with all the LSAs doing slow flight, 747 patterns......
But there is nothing wrong with safe passing either if it doesn't cause the put-put to go around.....
PS: great looking dog!
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O-200
Pre-takeoff checklist
Had a guy in a EZ cut me off entering the pattern a couple of weeks ago, scared the s*** out of me for a second.
Of course when you fly an airplane backwards like that, it looks like it's coming right at you!!
George
Of course when you fly an airplane backwards like that, it looks like it's coming right at you!!
George
jhausch
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docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Obviously I do things the wrong way.
Last year I was coming in to Salida CO entering pattern for 24, and called my position. There was some turboprop right behind me coming in from Denver, and I was slowed down to 75 MPH with the gear still in the well. He said something about extending or S turns, and I just called back and said come on in, I'm doing a lazy right 360 and will follow.
He got down quick, and was unloading and I landed and pulled up. He paid my ramp fee for three nights.
Last year I was coming in to Salida CO entering pattern for 24, and called my position. There was some turboprop right behind me coming in from Denver, and I was slowed down to 75 MPH with the gear still in the well. He said something about extending or S turns, and I just called back and said come on in, I'm doing a lazy right 360 and will follow.
He got down quick, and was unloading and I landed and pulled up. He paid my ramp fee for three nights.
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
I fly out of an uncontrolled field at home and at times, weekends usually, it can get busy. When I'm in the 310 I fly wider than the gaggle of student traffic and try to work into the slower guys. It's not rocket science and %99.9 of the time the co-operation works great. And for the %.1 it is good to practice go arounds once in a while if S-turns can't keep the separation.
danpass
Pre-Flight
The instructor and I once requested, and performed, an s-turn on final to create separation. No biggie.
whifferdill
Line Up and Wait
It's all about communication. There's a lot of training activity at my airport by pilots in 152s and Allegro LSA's flying big wide patterns. In the Pitts I really don't feel I'm being a jerk by flying downwind well inside them, overtaking them, flying a tight base-to-final, and clearing the runway before they turn base....if I communicate where I am, that I've got them in sight, will fly a tight base-to-final, and will be NO factor.
But I've occasionally gotten the mildly irritated call (can hear in their voice) from a loaded 152 in front of me calling x-wind a mile past the end of the runway when I'm doing T&G's in the Pitts and turning mid-field x-wind waaay inside of them. I think they feel I'm "cutting them off"...until they realize that I'm back on the ground before they get to mid-field downwind. When I hear that tone in their voice I'll just call right back with my position and say I have them in sight and will be no factor. Doesn't take them long to figure out how true that is, and everybody seems cool once they understand what my airplane can do, and that I'm paying attention and being considerate. They really have no legit reason to be annoyed at that point, so I don't worry about it.
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S Joslin
Pre-takeoff checklist
Being a Cub driver, I would agree that it's all about communication. Our Cub is hangered at a towered airport, but my favorite place for pattern work is a non-towered airport not far away. But, this place can get really busy on a nice day. Being in the Cub, I know I'm the slowest plane in the pattern. When the pattern gets busy (4-5 planes), as long as everyone is talking and working together, it's not an issue. But, I also take a self-preservation "approach" also...
If I'm in the pattern with a much faster plane, I'll tell the faster plane that I'll make a right 360 at mid-field on a left downwind (providing that we're the only two planes in the pattern) and let them get ahead of me or I'll fly a very tight pattern with a short, sharp base (think dive bomb) with a fast approach to keep the spacing. I've even landed in grass next to the runway and let the "train" of planes pass by so I can be the last in the sequence...
Again, I would say that communication is the key. It's all about aviating!!
If I'm in the pattern with a much faster plane, I'll tell the faster plane that I'll make a right 360 at mid-field on a left downwind (providing that we're the only two planes in the pattern) and let them get ahead of me or I'll fly a very tight pattern with a short, sharp base (think dive bomb
) with a fast approach to keep the spacing. I've even landed in grass next to the runway and let the "train" of planes pass by so I can be the last in the sequence...Again, I would say that communication is the key. It's all about aviating!!
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
No. Inconsiderateness seems to run in the crowd. It may not, but it certainly appears so.Wow, the pilot of the RV had nothing to do with it? The RV just took control over the pilot and cut you off?
Damn RV's.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
That is exactly what I do.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Hey some jerk in a red Pitts cut me off in the pattern yesterday when I was flying the cub.
I fly patterns inside the wide pattern guys too. But I have the same criteria. Only do that if I can keep them in sight, I make clear radio calls and ensure my pattern will not be any factor for them. One bonus is the cub cockpit affords big time visibility and its easy to keep tabs on everyone in the pattern
whifferdill
Line Up and Wait
Yep, and next time I'm gonna barrel roll you.