Overhead Break

Tarheelpilot said:
then don’t use it... I never intended to convey the silly idea that the overhead always works. It’s no different than any other pattern entry. Each situation is different and it’s up to the PIC to select the safest most efficient way to mesh with traffic.
Click to expand...
Your use of common sense and lack of tendency toward hysteria is not in keeping with the general thrust of this thread.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Sounds like you worked for a real turd. I never encountered that kind of non sense hauling jumpers.
Click to expand...
He was not the best boss, but not because of that. It was a busy DZ and JetA and hot section overhauls don't pay for themselves, every load mattered. So too much yucking around in the pattern could definitely spell one or more fewer loads that day. So yeah, if I did anything that wasted time, I would fully expect to hear about it. I don't blame him for that.
 
Boone said:
It sounds to me like he started reducing power 90° through the turn. He also seemed to come in relatively slow. That looked like something less than 350kts but it’s hard to tell. If you come in slow and go straight to idle, it messes up the habit patterns and the abeam distance. You’ll be at gear speed well before 180°, it slows down the turn and probably screws up interval for everyone else. My goal was usually to hit gear speed approaching 180° of turn, unless I broke late w/o an interval.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And like Nauga said, it is very hard to tell by sound where the power is......other than the fact that this looks to be an unusually benign and slow break. Shut the ECS off and she gets glider quiet, regardless of where the throttles are. Those cans are like 30 feet behind you and the intakes are quiet inside the jet unless you are in a legacy Hornet (which for the room this appears to be) at or around transonic speed down low where you get the inlet buzz (more like a howl).
 
Juliet Hotel said:
He was not the best boss, but not because of that. It was a busy DZ and JetA and hot section overhauls don't pay for themselves, every load mattered. So too much yucking around in the pattern could definitely spell one or more fewer loads that day. So yeah, if I did anything that wasted time, I would fully expect to hear about it. I don't blame him for that.
Click to expand...
Well. That’s different than getting yelled at if you didn’t descend into a straight in final.

my bosses hot sections were not free either but we were expected to be safe and courteous in the pattern.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
my bosses hot sections were not free either but we were expected to be safe and courteous in the pattern.
Click to expand...
Our idea of being courteous in the pattern mostly involved staying out of it until short final. If I flew a downwind, it usually started as I came through 4k turning base at about 1500 or so and turning final about 800. If I ended up descending on the downwind side of the airport there was no pattern at all, just a spiral shaped drop to a 2 or 3 mile final with the most of the descent being at Vne or nearly and trying to time the start of my speed reduction so that I could arrive on final when there would be a gap in the existing pattern traffic.

The argument here is that an overhead break gets you to the runway faster. I'm not seeing how levelling off at pattern altitude somewhere downwind of the runway, then flying level to the runway at pattern altitude and then doing an overhead break would get me to runway faster than timing my speed reduction to arrive on final when its empty and just landing.
 
If you don't need the high g turn to lose energy, and you don't need to overfly the field to check the windsock, a straight in approach would seem safer, provided you can safely sequence yourself in. Or fly an upwind at pattern altitude followed by a crosswind at the normal location.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
...When I flew jumpers, time was money. Once the jumpers were out, the goal was to get on the ground ASAP. If you weren't on the ground while there were still canopies in the air, you were wasting time. If I happened to be descending off the approach end of the runway and then flew to the numbers and did an overhead break instead of flying a drop from the sky straight in, my boss would've ripped me a new butt hole.
Click to expand...
We have a very active jump operation and jump pilots at my home drome. The guy who flies the Caravan is awesome! I'll be rolling for takeoff and he'll announce "Jumpers away at 13,000." He then proceeds to announce his position and altitude every 15-30 seconds. I'll just be pulling power on downwind when he'll appear at the top of my windscreen in what looks like a vertical dive. He will pull out, level off, bank into a VERY short final, and touch down. The guy ALWAYS beats his jumpers to the ground. I've only had to extend my downwind a few times for spacing, and I'm happy to do so. They guy is making a living and just a joy to watch. BTW the runway is 36'x2672'.
 
hindsight2020 said:
You can tell in the Spruce Goose video those RV dudes have USAF form mannerisms. The hand signals and turning rejoin mechanisms are USAF-flavored appropriations, not Navy.

--break break--



I know the video is of a hornet but I'll address the USAF reasons. The use of power during the break is situational. Normally in a multi-ship arrival the lead needs to roll out on downwind at a progressively faster speed than the trailing aircraft, in order to not create a bottleneck at the perch (since dash one configures and slows down first, and everybody configures generally in the same geographic position). If taken to the logical conclusion, would lead to dash-4 to perch excessively late to preserve spacing, or if perching on time, not have sufficient spacing for alternate side runway landing ops behind dash-3. That's why lead whips it around in MIL through 50-75% of the break to preserve spacing. In delta or "wingless" planforms, it also preserves turn rate, since the high alpha cost is high. (Ask me how I know on the former :D )



What you're describing is called VMC drag in the USAF side. It has opportunity costs like everything else, but that is in the context of category D/E tacair planes with speeds that require a separation that would make a 4-ship conga line evidently long, well beyond the confines of a nominal class D airspace. In that context, 100% the overhead is a tighter, faster execution of recovery, which is why it's favored on this side of the fence.

For the piddly spam cans we're talking about, you could VMC-drag a 4 ship with little problem, given the separation exigencies of category A aircraft are inconsequential (relatively speaking).
Click to expand...


That’s exactly why it’s an invaluable maneuver for the military. Unless they’re helos, the vast majority of military arrivals are IFR. Standard IFR sep being 3 miles and adding 1 mile for each flight is too restrictive.

So, best case scenario for formation flights without the use of the overhead would be either split the flight for visuals or VMC drag on the visual. Problem is, with that 5 mile sep requirement trying to get a multiple flights to slow up at the same rate would be a massive PITA. Trying to use visual sep with each flight in order to clear them for the visual would be a PITA. Trying to sequence them behind / in front of other IAP aircraft would be a PITA. The “conga line” that it would create would be a PITA with trying to separate IFR enroute s from them.

The beauty in the overhead from an ATC perspective, is two fold; speed and lack of separation. The faster the aircraft are out of the controller’s airspace the better. I’d don’t care about a Hornet who may or may not have the power up during the break. I’ve seen them light the burners in the break before. Whatever gets them on the ground the quickest. The key in the definition of the overhead is the whole IFR aircraft immediately become VFR at the initial. That’s music to a controller’s ears. No clearance or sep to worry about. They hit the initial, they now become towers problem. Not much of a problem because it’s designed to seamlessly mesh with their pattern and even inbound IAPs. The overhead flys over IAPs on final. They fly over aircraft on the go. Tower can even launch an IFR under them. The 500 ft vertical safety buffer protects other aircraft at pattern altitude until the overhead sees them. Even though the flight takes spacing in downwind, they are still a flight and have no Cat III SRS to deal with either.

In a nutshell, the overhead allows more aircraft in a tighter amount of space, faster, than IFR would allow.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top