Overhauled engine

[BillG]

As most of you know, on the way back from picking up my 1979 Tiger the #3 cylinder swallowed a valve just southeast of Rochester, NY last month. I ended up in Candanagua, NY (D38). The 1900 hour engine was sent out to be overhauled and is due back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I figured now is also a good time to upgrade the prop from the stock McCauley to the better Sensenich. I had the prop shipped directly to the mechanic, who I obviously don't really know but I didn't have a lot of choice about where I ended up.

Now for my questions... I guess I need to buy the STC for the prop to be legal? Is the best place Fletcher? Is there anything else I need to know about this?

I've read through the break-in procedures for the new Titan CermiNil cylinders that will be on the engine, but I've never had a new engine before (and I am also very new to Tigers.) Great situation, huh? I'm looking for suggestions on what I should do when I go out to pick up the plane in a few weeks, assuming I can't find a local Grumman guy to go with me.

 

[Anthony]

As most of you know, on the way back from picking up my 1979 Tiger the #3 cylinder swallowed a valve just southeast of Rochester, NY last month. I ended up in Candanagua, NY (D38). The 1900 hour engine was sent out to be overhauled and is due back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I figured now is also a good time to upgrade the prop from the stock McCauley to the better Sensenich. I had the prop shipped directly to the mechanic, who I obviously don't really know but I didn't have a lot of choice about where I ended up.

Now for my questions... I guess I need to buy the STC for the prop to be legal? Is the best place Fletcher? Is there anything else I need to know about this?

I've read through the break-in procedures for the new Titan CermiNil cylinders that will be on the engine, but I've never had a new engine before (and I am also very new to Tigers.) Great situation, huh? I'm looking for suggestions on what I should do when I go out to pick up the plane in a few weeks, assuming I can't find a local Grumman guy to go with me.

Bill. The STC is available from Fletchair and from what I know that's the best place to get it. I think its $250. I have the Sensenich prop and its money well spent. It looses the inspection AD and the RPM range limit of the McCauley. Make sure the prop is airworthy if you buy one used.

The shop should give you the Mfg's break in procedure for the new cylinders. If not, get them direct from the Mfg.

You should be able to find a quailified Grumman PFP CFI near where you pick up the plane. Although I had done the PFP check-out with Ron Levy, I didn't pick up my Tiger until over a month later. Through the AYA or GG (I forget which) I found a local PFP CFI to make sure I wasn't rusty. We did a few touch and goes and stalls and I was good to go. He really operated as a safety pilot for a few patterns then turned me loose to fly home.

 

[BillG]

Thanks, Anthony. The prop is new. I'm not concerned about my experience in the Tiger as much as what I should do about picking up a plane with a newly installed engine! Touch and goes are not an option as I need to break the engine in first - I know that much at least.... But I don't know what else to look for or anything, and I don't really know the mechanic that well. He seems like he knows what he's doing, but he hasn't even worked on many Grummans (he knows that engine though)...

 

[Iceman]

There are many different opinions on breaking in an engine. Some people think you should baby the engine, others think you should ride it hard and put it away wet, and other think you need to find a place inbetween to operate the engine.

To be safe you should follow the mfg's break in procedure...however...

If it was my engine from what I have learned during the past year or so I would...

Take off and climb with max cooling (cowl flaps full open, higher airspeed) Try to keep the engine cool (cht <380) and the mp high to break in the rings. You might want to stay around the pattern in case something goes wrong. After 10 or 15 mins land and make sure nothing is going wrong inside the engine. For the next 5 hours try to fly a cross country where you have high percentage of power like no less than 75% and try to keep the engine cool with a very rich mixture.

You should not try to do stalls or other training stuff if you can. It will get you engine too hot or you will not have enough power to break it in correctly.

Again this is my opinion and YMMV

 

[Anthony]

I'm not concerned about my experience in the Tiger as much as what I should do about picking up a plane with a newly installed engine!

That's right new engine. The break in procedures will come from the shop/ECI. I had a new cylinder (Millenium) installed last year. Basically, I was told to fly it at full power (at least 75% or more) for a minimum of one hour over the field before I headed to my home field. I was also told to fly at the high power setting for at least 10 hours and watch for the CHT drop. The CHT's will be high until the engine is broken in. For me this was less than 10 hours, but I still flew like I was breaking it in for at leat 12 hours. After about 20 hours I had an oil change and checked the filter, then replaced the straight mineral oil used for break-in with my usual Aeroshell 15/50.

Hopefully the mechs will chime in with more specifics. But that is the general concept.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. I was also told to minimze runup and taxi time and run full rich.

 

[Tom-D]

As most of you know, on the way back from picking up my 1979 Tiger the #3 cylinder swallowed a valve just southeast of Rochester, NY last month. I ended up in Candanagua, NY (D38). The 1900 hour engine was sent out to be overhauled and is due back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I figured now is also a good time to upgrade the prop from the stock McCauley to the better Sensenich. I had the prop shipped directly to the mechanic, who I obviously don't really know but I didn't have a lot of choice about where I ended up.

Now for my questions... I guess I need to buy the STC for the prop to be legal? Is the best place Fletcher? Is there anything else I need to know about this?

I've read through the break-in procedures for the new Titan CermiNil cylinders that will be on the engine, but I've never had a new engine before (and I am also very new to Tigers.) Great situation, huh? I'm looking for suggestions on what I should do when I go out to pick up the plane in a few weeks, assuming I can't find a local Grumman guy to go with me.

Bill, Ignore every thing anyone says about break in procedures, and follow the factory procedurs. I have several engines in service with CermiNil cylinders. Every owner has followed their procedures to the letter, and none of the engines burn a qt between oil changes.

ECI thinks different than every one, and runs Phillips 20W50 from day one, and it WORKS GREAT in their CermiNil cylinders. When the A&P says "run Mineral Oil" Show them the break in procedurs sheet that comes with each cylinder. and insist they put 20W50 phillips in it from day one.

Its your engine, its our money, do it by the factory method or pay again.

Been there, done that, didn't like it.

Tom D. A&P-IA, with 6 sets of ECI CermiNil cylinders in service now.

 

[Tom-D]

There are many different opinions on breaking in an engine. Some people think you should baby the engine, others think you should ride it hard and put it away wet, and other think you need to find a place inbetween to operate the engine.

To be safe you should follow the mfg's break in procedure...however...

If it was my engine from what I have learned during the past year or so I would...

Take off and climb with max cooling (cowl flaps full open, higher airspeed) Try to keep the engine cool (cht <380) and the mp high to break in the rings. You might want to stay around the pattern in case something goes wrong. After 10 or 15 mins land and make sure nothing is going wrong inside the engine. For the next 5 hours try to fly a cross country where you have high percentage of power like no less than 75% and try to keep the engine cool with a very rich mixture.

You should not try to do stalls or other training stuff if you can. It will get you engine too hot or you will not have enough power to break it in correctly.

Again this is my opinion and YMMV

ECI's advice is to run 75% power setting for 10 hours on their cermiNil cylinders. Then treat the engine normally.

 

[BillG]

Thanks again, guys. Actually, I read through and pretty much understand ECI's instructions. I'm just a tad nervous about taking up a plane I barely know with a new engine installed by a mechanic I don't know who doesn't know Grummans all that well. Call me crazy, but....

 

[Iceman]

Thanks again, guys. Actually, I read through and pretty much understand ECI's instructions. I'm just a tad nervous about taking up a plane I barely know with a new engine installed by a mechanic I don't know who doesn't know Grummans all that well. Call me crazy, but....

You sound crazy to me...if I were you I would break it in at night in hard IFR or else the engine will not know what to do later in life if you go through a cloud .

 

[Len Lanetti]

Call me crazy, but....

Bill,

You're not crazy. I've had my plane awhile, know and trust my mechanic well but I've scouted out where I'll park the plane if it turns to a glider between 500 and about 1,000 feet on that first departure.

My plan for the first flight is to circle the airport above pattern altitude. High enough that I'll be able to make the runway but not so high as to not be able to pull sufficent power to break in the engine. I'm hoping for a cool day. I also need a day without bumps as I'm going to be well into the yellow arc.

Len

 

[Michael]

Bill,

You're not crazy. I've had my plane awhile, know and trust my mechanic well but I've scouted out where I'll park the plane if it turns to a glider between 500 and about 1,000 feet on that first departure.

My plan for the first flight is to circle the airport above pattern altitude. High enough that I'll be able to make the runway but not so high as to not be able to pull sufficent power to break in the engine. I'm hoping for a cool day. I also need a day without bumps as I'm going to be well into the yellow arc.

Len

Len...I know what they say about the yellow arc and turb. But...the mooney wing and all...Do you really worry about bumps while in the lower yellow? Its been my experiance with my mooney, you need to reduce power to almost idle to get out of the yellow in cruise.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Len...I know what they say about the yellow arc and turb. But...the mooney wing and all...Do you really worry about bumps while in the lower yellow? Its been my experiance with my mooney, you need to reduce power to almost idle to get out of the yellow in cruise.

In cruise I'll climb instead of reducing power to get out of the yellow. Partially for ride comfort and partially due to airspeed limitations.

I've read all the stories about the Mooney wing and how the early C model is the same as the later models and the later models have a wider green arc so it is ok to run the C up there even if it is bumpy, etc, etc, etc. All that said it is still the limitation (well that and the airplane is over 40 years old). The part I have trouble knowing is how bumpy is too bumpy before you have to generate a lower indicated airspeed.

Len

 

[RogerT]

Thanks again, guys. Actually, I read through and pretty much understand ECI's instructions. I'm just a tad nervous about taking up a plane I barely know with a new engine installed by a mechanic I don't know who doesn't know Grummans all that well. Call me crazy, but....

Bill ..

When I broke in my new engine in my Tiger I gave it a VERY good
preflight then took off and circled the airport at about 3k AGL for
30 minutes. Then came down and looked for leaks or anything out
of kilter. Repeated that a couple more times. From there I'd follow the
instructions of the engine shop.

 

[poadeleted3]

Bill,

You're not crazy. I've had my plane awhile, know and trust my mechanic well but I've scouted out where I'll park the plane if it turns to a glider between 500 and about 1,000 feet on that first departure.

My plan for the first flight is to circle the airport above pattern altitude. High enough that I'll be able to make the runway but not so high as to not be able to pull sufficent power to break in the engine. I'm hoping for a cool day. I also need a day without bumps as I'm going to be well into the yellow arc.

Len

How hard can you run the engine if you leave the gear down to slow you down?

 

[PoAdeleted5]

On my new engine, first thing was to pre-oil it after installation. That means take out the spark plugs on the top, fill the oil coiler with oil, then run the starter until positive oil pressure is acheived. Then put the plugs in and do the first start and test run immediately.

We ran it on the ground 3 times for no more than 3 minutes with the cowling removed. This was to verify that nothing was leaking. On the second run did a quick mag check and set the idle mixture. On the last run, we set the idle speed. Minimum 3 hours between runs to allow complete cooling.

First flight test was early on a sunday morning. Did a very thorough pre-flight, called the tower for taxi clearance, then started up the engine, quickly taxied to the run up area, did the mag check and run up very quickly. First take off was smooth, slow application of full power. Once safely off the ground drop the nose for cruise-climb.

Did about 45 minutes orbiting the field at 2000 ft at about 75%-80% power, straight and level. Did about 10 minutes at the end near redline. The break-in instructions said full power, but had to stop at redline with plenty of throttle left.

Let her cool off completely, then went and did another hour a day later running hard at low-altitude

The Milleniums seemed to stop burning oil after the first hour or two. Total burned was about 1/2-3/4 quart. At 9 hours and change, it hasn't changed oil level at all. Holding steady right in between 6-8 on the dipstick.

From then on, I've been doing x-country flights at 75% and low-altitude. Superior suggests alternating between 65% and 75% every 15 minutes and leaning 75 degrees ROP. That's pretty much what I've been doing. Nothing over 5K feet yet. Don't have a CHT in the plane, wish I did. Oil temps have been steady at just a hair under 180. The engine got a filter and a vernatherm at overhaul, which it never had before. I also installed a brand new oil cooler.

The idea from everything I've read is to run hard and keep cool. Got to build pressure to get the rings to seat, but keep the heat down to keep from glazing the walls or annealing the piston rings. The one thing that everyone I've heard say is do NOT baby the engine during break-in.

From what I understand, the Titans break-in really quickly, but you must follow ECI's instructions precisely. The other thing is to make sure you have good baffles and good baffle sealing. Cooling is critical. All those new parts make a lot of excess friction and a lot of heat that needs shedding.

One WARNING! Plan your fuel carefully!!!! Estimate about 30% greater fuel consumption at first. My engine gobbled up fuel at a much higher rate at first. Partly from me running at high-power, low-altitude and full rich for maximum cooling. I guess friction accounts for the rest. But since you need to fly her home x-country, make sure you have plenty of gas in the tanks!

A couple of hours of good hard cruise (rental power!) below 5000 feet should be the best break-in you can ask for.

 

[Henning]

As most of you know, on the way back from picking up my 1979 Tiger the #3 cylinder swallowed a valve just southeast of Rochester, NY last month. I ended up in Candanagua, NY (D38). The 1900 hour engine was sent out to be overhauled and is due back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I figured now is also a good time to upgrade the prop from the stock McCauley to the better Sensenich. I had the prop shipped directly to the mechanic, who I obviously don't really know but I didn't have a lot of choice about where I ended up.

Now for my questions... I guess I need to buy the STC for the prop to be legal? Is the best place Fletcher? Is there anything else I need to know about this?

I've read through the break-in procedures for the new Titan CermiNil cylinders that will be on the engine, but I've never had a new engine before (and I am also very new to Tigers.) Great situation, huh? I'm looking for suggestions on what I should do when I go out to pick up the plane in a few weeks, assuming I can't find a local Grumman guy to go with me.

Well, you read the proceedures from them, just follow them. I believe it's 75% for 10 hrs with those jugs, but if the break in sheet you got from them says different, ignore me. Just keep good tabs on your CHTs and don't get too lean. As for runups, your mechanic should do a cowl off static run up and leak check before handing it off to you. Whenever I do the engine break ins, I try to do the preflight runup lined up so after all checks are done I can just release brakes and go full throttle without backing off again (as long as everything checks good that is). Reality is though, it's not that bloody fussy. Just follow the manufacturers break in sheet, and all will be ok.

 

[Len Lanetti]

How hard can you run the engine if you leave the gear down to slow you down?

Joe,

Not very. Speed is limited to 120 mph with the gear out.

Depending on conditions I need to get manifold pressure down to at least 18 inches to get down to gear speed.

Len