Over policed during ramp chk?

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Dave Taylor
I was given permission to share this story once IDs were removed. From a friend of a friend - thought it was important that everyone keeps apprised of what is going on. Sure hope it doesn't become commonplace. Reminds me of going to a Mx airport with all the various armed guards running around, saving no one in particular.

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Well, I had another "unique" aviation situation develop this past Friday. I flew to XXX, in 2.7 hours on an instrument flight plan, to be with my wife for a medical pre-surgical conference, etc

When I landed, I was met by a guy in a flak vest, with the initials CBP on it, shown a badge and told I had been "selected" for a "routine" ramp check by the FAA. I thought this somewhat unusual has I had been ramp checked before, by one FAA guy. But this time, there were 3 inspectors from the FAA, 3 guys from "CBP" in flak vests, guns, etc., and a sheriff's deputy with the K-9 dog. I was initially ask for all the routine paper work for me and the plane, by the FAA, which I gave them, and was all in order. The date on the plane's registration was smeared, and I was told this was from keeping the paper in the plastic pouch in the aircraft, and would have to get a legible replacement. (all you plane owners need to check your registration paperwork, if you keep it in the the plastic pouches that the plane makers routinely install for holding the paperwork) No big deal and the FAA was satisfied. Then, after I put away the paperwork, The CBP (U.S. Customs and Border Protection) from Homeland Security ask me to get it all out again, and I politely complied with their request. They check me out and everything still seems to be in order. They are then looking at my plane and ask to search it. I give them permission, as I have nothing to hide, (or so I think!). They find a pistol, in its case, inside my luggage, in the baggage compartment, and it seems to excite them. I inform them that I have a permit to carry and concealed weapon, and am armed. This is required by law, if in a confrontational situation with a law enforcement officer. however, since I had been originally informed that this was a routine ramp check by the FAA, who are not law enforcement personnel, I had seen not reason to get involved. Well, the feces hit the rotary propeller at this point, and I was told not to move while I was searched, after I told them were to find my pistol, told them how to remove it, as they had trouble doing so, and were frustrated. Then after a body search, they ask me if I had any more weapons, which I told them I had a pocket knife they had missed in the search, which seem to make them more anxious. During this whole ordeal, I remained calm and collected, never lost my temper, never raised my voice, showed respect and answered all questions quickly and honestly. Now, those of you who really know me, know that this took more than a little restraint on my part!

Then they brought out the dog, which ALERTED on my plane! Things really started getting dicey at this point! However, after several of them searching for what seemed like hours, they did not find anything, as I had nothing to hide! This seem to upset them even more? All this time (a couple of hours?) I had been standing outside, in low 60's temperature, in a 30+ mph wind, in light slacks and a golf shirt. My wife and 91 year old mother-in-law had driven out on the ramp to pick me up, but were not allowed to get close to me or communicate with me. I finally was able to send them home. I then ask to go inside the FBO, and was allowed to do so, with a guard, who had been stationed with me since the search began.

The other officers stayed outside and checked out all my permits, gun registrations etc., and again everything was in order, but they seemed to be getting more frustrated by the minute? I guess, since they could not find a "bad guy"? The FAA left, and the officers had a conference. Several more hours of hassle and games playing happened, but that is the theme for a different story, at another time.

I finally got them to admit this was not a "routine" FAA ramp check, but a combined task force joint operation. I think there is even more to this story, but they would not share with me. They did tell me that C-210's were targeted planes for observation, because of their speed and load capabilities, the same thing the insurance people tell you, when they give you the outlandish premium bill!
So, if you are every ramp checked, by more than a single FAA guy, BEWARE!
Now all I have to do is ask the former owner, since I have only had the plane 6 months or so, what he had been hauling in the plane, as scents can be detected by the dogs for a year or more!
I am sure the good Doctor (former owner, but no names, to protect the innocent?) will have no knowledge of what went on, but he hangared the plane next to the plane that our local control tower operator was later caught hauling 850# of marijuania in? Think that smells can travel from plane to plane, through a hangar wall?
More later, if and when I find out more?
 
more:

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Do you believe in coincidences? I do, but this may stretch the credibility of the system?
After being ramp checked by the law enforcement community weekend before last, in KXXX, I landed at KYYY International this morning, after a less than one hour IFR flight out of KZZZ. I was met , on the ramp by 3 BCP officers (Customs and Border Patrol), and one local LEO (law enforcement officer). I was in the bbbbbbb, not the aaaaaaaaaaa that I had been in, in KXXX They had “surrounded” the left side of the plane, by the time I got the cabin door open. They introduced themselves, very politely, all smiles, and told me that this was just a ROUTINE ramp check, and that they were ”just doing their job”. NO pretext of FAA this time, just LEO’s.
Ask me for the usual, registration and licenses, then checked them against a paper that one of the officers was holding, then ask me if I was carrying a weapon. Being the law abiding citizen that I am, I informed them that I had a pocket knife, and pointed to it with my opposite hand. Then another officer ask if he could look in the plane and if was I carrying any weapons in the plane. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, I THINK NOT!
I am still under investigation in XXX, for carrying a licensed hand gun and not informing the BCP that I had it on me, even though I was dealing with the FAA! Has cost me $2175 so far, and the local DA there can’t decide if he is going to prosecute me on a Class C Misdemeanor, that even his officers say is bogus! That does not include getting back the 2 pistols, with lasers, that they confiscated. One still new in the box, in luggage, in the luggage compartment!
I do not know whose list I made, but this is getting a bit old. After just a quick peak, through the open cabin door, they thanked me, and left, again stating that this was just routine?
How many of you have ever been ramp checked? Much less twice in less than 2 weeks?
 
Never, ever give police permission to search. If they already have enough to search without your permission, they will. The majority of searches are done by permission, though, and it can only end badly for you....
 
What a friggin nightmare. Hassling law abiding citizens, and getting frustrated when they can't find anything legit. Typical bureaucrats disguised as real LEO's. Good luck Dave.

:mad3:

This country is turning into a police state.
 
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Hi Dave,

I didn't know you had a new plane. You aren't flying the Viking anymore? I'm so sorry to hear that you are being hastled like this. Did you ever find out why if anything your plane alerted the K9 unit? Too weird. I'll check the registration in my plane to see if it's OK.
I've never been ramp checked - now that it might be more like a visit from the gestapo I hope I never am.
 
It depends on the state - but in most of them - he really should have informed them of the concealed firearm. I don't feel that the FAA is "law enforcement" but the local sheriff that he said was on scene definitely is.

I've been pulled over twice while concealing a firearm and law enforcement has always handled it well. Dome light on, hands on steering wheel, inform them of the firearm when they walk up and inform them where your permit is and ask them if it's OK for you to grab it. Setting the right tone from the start really makes them more comfortable.
 
Hi Dave,

I didn't know you had a new plane. You aren't flying the Viking anymore? I'm so sorry to hear that you are being hastled like this. Did you ever find out why if anything your plane alerted the K9 unit? Too weird. I'll check the registration in my plane to see if it's OK.
I've never been ramp checked - now that it might be more like a visit from the gestapo I hope I never am.

Dogs bark when they are told to.
 
And I'll bet he's on the watch list for commercial travel, too.

He'll need to sue them. That's the only thing they respect.
 
I think it's highly misleading for them to inform you it's a routine ramp check, then ask to search the plane. Folks in flack jackets with automatic weapons aren't authorized to do 'ramp' checks.

My 2 cents. I wouldn't have consented to the search. I would have asked if I was being detained and on what charges. If, not being detained, I would leave. If being detained, I would have asked to call my attorney (if he wasn't with me.) <g>

The more they just do this stuff with no consequence, the more they will continue to ignore that silly little document our fore Father's fought to create and I feel I fought to protect.

Best,

Dave
 
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When I was working line service (in Kansas), we had a 182RG come in one day from Texas, that was promptly met by DEA and local authorities. IIRC, they searched it and didn't find anything, but I don't remember the whole thing taking more than say 20 minutes.
 
My 2 cents. I wouldn't have consented to the search. I would have asked if I was being detained and on what charges. If, not being detained, I would leave. If being detained, I would have asked to call my attorney (if he wasn't with me.) <g>

I question I would ask (and your masterful disguising of the details has denied me), is how close was the airport where the search occurred to either Canada or Mexico.

Especially when dealing with CBP, anyplace within 50 miles or so of an international border is a 4th Amendment Free Zone, and consent or no, probable cause or no, they can search what they want, take your plane apart and leave the pieces sitting on the ramp for you to pick up without even needing to say "Sorry for the inconvenience."
 
Especially when dealing with CBP, anyplace within 50 miles or so of an international border is a 4th Amendment Free Zone, and consent or no, probable cause or no, they can search what they want, take your plane apart and leave the pieces sitting on the ramp for you to pick up without even needing to say "Sorry for the inconvenience."


And it's truly sad that we accept that as the norm.
 
It is situations like this that helps us to understand that our tax dollars are not being wasted. To suspect a group of highly paid government professionals of acting in other than your best interests, is just nonsense.

You have clearly misunderstood them altogether. You were told you had been selected for a routine inspection by honest government officials, how could you doubt their word? I just don't understand that at all. Why would they lie to you?

If we would all learn to emulate these heroic, selfless, public servants, and learn to appreciate all that they do for us and our freedoms, perhaps these little misunderstandings would not be so commonplace.

These wonderful people are clearly understaffed, and we should all work harder so that we might be able to pay more taxes so that we could hire even more of them.

We should be proud of our security forces and all they do on our behalf. Myself, I take great pride of all our government employees, they are, after all, here to help each and every one of us. Isn't that right?

John
 
I question I would ask (and your masterful disguising of the details has denied me), is how close was the airport where the search occurred to either Canada or Mexico.

Especially when dealing with CBP, anyplace within 50 miles or so of an international border is a 4th Amendment Free Zone, and consent or no, probable cause or no, they can search what they want, take your plane apart and leave the pieces sitting on the ramp for you to pick up without even needing to say "Sorry for the inconvenience."

Actually, it's 100 miles. Unfortunately.
 
I question I would ask (and your masterful disguising of the details has denied me), is how close was the airport where the search occurred to either Canada or Mexico.

Especially when dealing with CBP, anyplace within 50 miles or so of an international border is a 4th Amendment Free Zone, and consent or no, probable cause or no, they can search what they want, take your plane apart and leave the pieces sitting on the ramp for you to pick up without even needing to say "Sorry for the inconvenience."

It's 100 miles.
http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone

There is three-part test for extended border searches.http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/19163.pdf
Under the “extended border search” doctrine, government officials may conduct a warrantless search beyond the border or its functional equivalent if (1) the government officials have reasonable certainty or a “high degree of probability” that a border was crossed; (2) they also have reasonable certainty that no change in the object of the search has occurred between the time of the border crossing and the search; and (3) they have “reasonable suspicion” that criminal activity was occurring.

Was there, in the OP's scenario, some reason for them to believe the plane had taken off from somewhere outside the US, that there had been no change since it crossed the border (hadn't landed somewhere else), and suspect that criminal activity was occurring? I doubt it.

I would have told them that the standard advice I gotten from lawyers and LEOs is to never consent to a voluntary search, so as a matter of policy, I do not consent to a search.
 
Never volunteer anything for search!

Sorry about your luck man. Sounds like you were doomed either way with cops like that.
 
I don't feel that the FAA is "law enforcement" but the local sheriff that he said was on scene definitely is.

If the FAA guy cant carry a gun or arrest you, he's not a law enforcement officer. FAA court actions are civil, not criminal.

The person referenced by the OP got screwed.

I have a CCL/CHP.. and I carry. I also am allowed to carry without permit in Texas providing I am traveling, and the law has recently been amended to presume that I am traveling until proven otherwise.

Never ever had a problem with local PD with my CCL/CHP.
 
If the FAA guy cant carry a gun or arrest you, he's not a law enforcement officer. FAA court actions are civil, not criminal.

The person referenced by the OP got screwed.

I have a CCL/CHP.. and I carry. I also am allowed to carry without permit in Texas providing I am traveling, and the law has recently been amended to presume that I am traveling until proven otherwise.

Never ever had a problem with local PD with my CCL/CHP.
It wasn't just the FAA. He said the FAA was there, CBP officers with guns, and local law enforcement. He was obligated to inform them he was carrying a conceal weapon from the get-go. The fact that he didn't was a big mistake.
 
...oh, the law is for protection of the people.
Rules are rules and anyone can see,
We don't need no hairy-headed hippies,
Scaring decent folks like you and me....

-Kris Kristoferson-
 
If the FAA guy cant carry a gun or arrest you, he's not a law enforcement officer. FAA court actions are civil, not criminal.

The person referenced by the OP got screwed.

Nope, we don't carry guns but we do get to carry a nifty looking badge. :D

FAA actions are administrative and civil. If it becomes criminal we turn it over to the proper authorities.
 
The person referenced by the OP got screwed.

You mean he screwed himself by consenting to a search that was performed without probable cause and failed to inform the federal law enforcement officer in front of him of the fact that he had a weapon in his plane ?
 
It is situations like this that helps us to understand that our tax dollars are not being wasted. To suspect a group of highly paid government professionals of acting in other than your best interests, is just nonsense.

You have clearly misunderstood them altogether. You were told you had been selected for a routine inspection by honest government officials, how could you doubt their word? I just don't understand that at all. Why would they lie to you?

If we would all learn to emulate these heroic, selfless, public servants, and learn to appreciate all that they do for us and our freedoms, perhaps these little misunderstandings would not be so commonplace.

These wonderful people are clearly understaffed, and we should all work harder so that we might be able to pay more taxes so that we could hire even more of them.

We should be proud of our security forces and all they do on our behalf. Myself, I take great pride of all our government employees, they are, after all, here to help each and every one of us. Isn't that right?

John

Your cheek must really hurt after writing all that.:yesnod:
 
That a well trained dog will create probable cause where there is none.
Ooooh. That's not a pleasant thought, but it sounds sadly plausible.

Considering where I live, I should have heard of many cases like Dave's friend's friend's. Happily, I haven't, but that's no guarantee for the future.

There's a thread over on the Red Board about the TSA at 3W2 this past weekend. Not quite as over the top as this, but plenty unsettling still.
 
Could the first one possibly have been part of something like this?

Subject: Aviation Drug Interdiction Training at MYF

Aviation Drug Interdiction training will be conducted at airports in the San Diego area, including Montgomery Field, February 08-10, 2010. The plan is to visit the airport, conduct a few ramp checks and examine the wide variety of aircraft on our ramp. As before, this will be a training scenario conducted by Steve Hill, an Adjunct Professor for the Multijurisdictional Counterdrug Task Force Training Center of St. Pete College, St. Petersburg, FL. The "students" are typically law enforcement officers/representatives from various governmental agencies, i.e., Transportation Security Administration (TSA), Customs & Border Protection (CBP), Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE), Harbor Police, etc. Please cooperate during the training scenarios, so that those who are tasked with the interdiction of drugs coming to our country are afforded the best opportunity for training and improvement.
 
TX law seems strange to me. For some time it has allowed carrying a concealed weapon in the car while traveling, but for years the definition of "travel" was generally interpreted as meaning you were enroute to or from some remote destination.

It has now been clarified to mean that if you're in the car you're obviously not at home, so you must be "traveling" even if you're circling the block looking for a neighbor's lost dog. So my neighbor who is (now) legally packing on his way to the grocery store, but who has no CHL, would theoretically not be required to inform an officer that he had a gun in the car. Another neighbor with a CHL would be required (or strongly advised) to produce the CHL whether or not he is packing at the time of the encounter with the LEO.
 
Dave, your friend has a hidden transponder in his aircraft. He needs to take off all the panels and identify everything that leads to an antenna, and get rid of it.
 
Here is part 1 of a multi-part series called "Don't Talk to Cops"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

which I watched in full about a year ago. It was a real eye-opener for me. The "I didn't have anything to hide" defenses is useless when an overly zealous group of supposed law enforcers has a woodie to put you in a bind.

The key is to know the law, know your rights, and stand your ground. Never, ever volunteer for a search because nothing good can come from it. Never, ever volunteer information either. You start even and go downhill from there.

I have the utmost respect for legitimate enforcement officers but I will never voluntarily put myself in a position of defending myself. Remember, by law they are allowed to lie to you and trick you into subjugating yourself. Everything you say can be used against you while everything they say is inadmissable.

I would have presented my aircraft and pilot's papers to the FAA, as required, and refused any further exploration of the aircraft. No logs would be presented, either on the aircraft or on the pilot.

As someone said earlier, if they are truly targeting you because of a legitimate suspicion, they will already have the necessary paperwork in advance to forcibly search your aircraft or vehicle.
 
Dave, your friend has a hidden transponder in his aircraft. He needs to take off all the panels and identify everything that leads to an antenna, and get rid of it.

......and have a trusted avionics tech take the transponder apart and look for any monkeybusiness.
 
The point was he was told it was a ramp check. Here in TX, we aren't legally obligated to disclose we are carrying unless asked by a LEO. When pulled over, we are encouraged to disclose up front. I would not disclose to an FAA official performing a ramp check.
Now, from the picture drawn, one might determine it was not a ramp check with a sheriff and border patrol present, but that is what was stated. Once asked, it was disclosed.

Once again, I would not consent to the search and would ask if I was being detained. If they decide to search without a warrant, they will have to prove their case later.

If a border had been crossed, completely different story. If not, they are on very shaky ground.

Best,

Dave
 
No warrant is required for a vehicle such as an airplane. The judicial review of probable cause in those cases occurs after the fact (if prosecution moves forward), not before.

Law enforcement is not allowed to pose a ruse that would tend to trick an otherwise innocent person into incriminating themselves in a crime they did not commit.

Back to your regularly-scheduled rant fest.
 
Once again, I would not consent to the search and would ask if I was being detained. If they decide to search without a warrant, they will have to prove their case later.

I don't think they need a warrant. Its a vehicle. They can search it with probable cause. Dog barked.
 
No border crossings, this was all in the USA.
The first stop was ~600mi from the southern border, and that flight began ~200nm from the southern border.
The second stop also did not involve a border crossing and the stop was ~200nm from the border as well.
In case the hidden txpdr was not a joke, this was two different a/c.
It was not in Socal, not likely a training mission.
This was NOT ME! See the first line of my post!
I have wondered about DrB's past idea of starting a video recording of everything,...I guess it depends on the state laws. Planted drugs gives me the creeps.
 
TX law seems strange to me.

So my neighbor who is (now) legally packing on his way to the grocery store, but who has no CHL, would theoretically not be required to inform an officer that he had a gun in the car. Another neighbor with a CHL would be required (or strongly advised) to produce the CHL whether or not he is packing at the time of the encounter with the LEO.

The difference is... before this law was clarified... and before the CHL existed.. if you were a guy and had a handgun in your vehicle and couldn't easily prove you were traveling across one or more counties.. you were going to jail, and were criminally charged. More often than not, you had to prove travel in court, at your expense. It was/and continues to be legal to carry a long arm without a permit and without condition.

The legislature codified the presumption of traveling not too long ago.
 
No, not at all. I've been thinking of running for public office and have been practicing my B.S.

So.......wadya think? :D


John

Anybody with at least an ounce of common sense would be able
to detect the BS.

IOW - you'll do fine.
 
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