Oshkosh Police chief in the news

And beyond the constitutional questions, what is Flock doing with the data? I haven't signed any "opt-in" agreements with them like I have with Apple, Google, et. al.
 
Lindberg said:
Yeah, it's literally my opinion. Which is what was asked for. How is it irrelevant?

Non sequitor.

Consensus based on personal opinions and perceptions is how democracy works, no?

Flock cameras are being implemented at the behest of elected officials. If that counts as being done "without prior consent of the citizens," then everything government does is "without prior consent of the citizens."

Not liking it is an opinion, and, according to you, irrelevant.

Another opinion?
Click to expand...

Sure, we all have opinions. Whether or not they are in tune with the Constitution, as originally intended by the Founders to prevent the loss of individual freedoms is another story... often they are not.

In a representative form of government (not a democracy), regulations, penalties, procedures are typically implemented then enforced by regulators, i.e. zoning officials, town / city non-elected officials, etc, following an initial approval vote by elected officials (IMO often following political donations from vendors who sell the equipment). Then it is the job of career government employees to manage the process. Unfortunately, they usually remain at work a lot longer than the politicians who technically oversee their duties and performance.

Hence, once a component of the ever evolving system of "public safety" is set up, paid for and implemented it is very difficult for citizens to change it. Whether or not the policies and procedures involved are unconstitutional, a citizen filing lawsuits then taking it up the chain to higher courts for review and clarification is an expensive and lengthy experience... IMO, by design. Sadly, it is the duty of the citizen to be informed that government exists to work for the people, and not the other way around.

Unfortunately, our educational system around here in Pennsylvania no longer teaches Civics and the US Constitution to the level that should be taught to obtain a clear understanding of why we bother to vote, and the important differences between a Constitutional Republic and a Democracy. That is a fact that I've found to be true after "pop quizzing" multiple high school seniors and college students who are proud to be "A" students. Considering the state of our culture and nation I'm confident "A" students graduating High Schools lacking a good understanding of the Constitution and purpose of government is not limited to my locality.

Ultimately, we get the quality of government and accountability we agree to accept... and in many important areas that's a very low bar. Of course IMO.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes. That would be the subset that is allowed under our Constitution.

The 4th Amendment is not a suggestion, nor is it "non sequitor" as you stated above.
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No court has agreed with you yet. And you still haven't explained why an expectation of privacy wouldn't be a threshold issue, as you've claimed.
 
jsstevens said:
And beyond the constitutional questions, what is Flock doing with the data? I haven't signed any "opt-in" agreements with them like I have with Apple, Google, et. al.
Click to expand...
Have you signed such agreements with anyone else operating cameras in your vicinity? Around here, many private cameras feed into the fusion center just like Flock.
 
Rick A said:
In a representative form of government (not a democracy)
Click to expand...
Let's just nip this in the bud. The US is a democracy. We elect our representatives. I'm not sure why saying otherwise has become popular recently, but the US is indeed a kind of democracy. There are at least a dozen different kinds of democracies in various countries around the world, but they are all democracies. One of the better analogies I've seen is:

Kingdom: Democracy
Rule in which political power derives from and is accountable to the citizenry, however that's implemented.

Phylum: Mechanism of decision-making, this is the genus-defining trait

Direct democracy
Representative democracy
Deliberative democracy
(these are more like alternate phyla than genus/species, since a system is fundamentally organized one way at its core, even if it borrows features from another)

Class: Executive-legislative structure (within representative democracy, the dominant phylum today)

Parliamentary
Presidential
Semi-presidential

Order: Territorial power distribution

Federal
Unitary

Family: Constitutional constraint level

Liberal democracy
Illiberal democracy

Genus: Electoral system

Majoritarian/plurality
Proportional representation
Mixed
 
idle question: would it be legal to obstruct the view of cameras like the flock cameras? When someone sets up a camera is a public place, is there an expectation that no one interfers with the camera?
 
Lindberg said:
Yes. I've seen what they can, and do, do.
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Yes, just look how quickly they track down any protesters, or any people of interest in the People's Republic of China. They use something similar to Flock with facial recognition added. Flock uses enough pattern recognition to include make, model, color, and distinguishing appearance to the license plate number. Add SignalTrace (1) or other tools (2) to the Flock and you get a surveillance system very similar to that used in the PRC. SignalTrace captures all your electronic emissions- cell phone, WiFi, Bluetooth, RFID tags.

We aren't there, and I hope we don't get to that point. Our use of such tools needs to be monitored so that no part of our government misuses the tools within our cultural mindset. An "evil doer" can be defined as someone who protests against the government.

(1) https://www.leonardocompany-us.com/lpr/elsag-signaltrace
(2) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...provides-police-mass-surveillance-on-a-budget
 
Bob Noel said:
idle question: would it be legal to obstruct the view of cameras like the flock cameras? When someone sets up a camera is a public place, is there an expectation that no one interfers with the camera?
Click to expand...
The vast majority of the ones I've looked at are on public land, so I'm not sure how you would block them without tampering with the device itself or setting up a physical barrier in front of it, neither of which seem like they would be legal since you own neither the device nor the land needed to setup the barrier. If you happened to live on a corner that had one pointed toward your lot, I can't think of any reason why blocking its view by planting bushes or trees would be an issue.
 
Bob Noel said:
idle question: would it be legal to obstruct the view of cameras like the flock cameras? When someone sets up a camera is a public place, is there an expectation that no one interfers with the camera?
Click to expand...

172andyou said:
The vast majority of the ones I've looked at are on public land, so I'm not sure how you would block them without tampering with the device itself or setting up a physical barrier in front of it, neither of which seem like they would be legal since you own neither the device nor the land needed to setup the barrier. If you happened to live on a corner that had one pointed toward your lot, I can't think of any reason why blocking its view by planting bushes or trees would be an issue.
Click to expand...
Yes, it appears possible to do so, at least temporarily. The link below describes a FL man blocking the cameras with a protest sign.
www.yahoo.com

Meet Florida’s “Flock Blocker,” the Man Who Sits in Front of ALPR Cameras All Day

Carl Gunn, a 77-year-old St. Petersburg resident, is popularly known as the ‘Flock Blocker’ and protests against Flock Safety’s automated license-plate reader (ALPR) cameras by sitting near them and h...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

It's not very practical, blocking one camera at a time and the guy seems like he needs to be there to block the camera.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Yes, it appears possible to do so, at least temporarily. The link below describes a FL man blocking the cameras with a protest sign.
www.yahoo.com

Meet Florida’s “Flock Blocker,” the Man Who Sits in Front of ALPR Cameras All Day

Carl Gunn, a 77-year-old St. Petersburg resident, is popularly known as the ‘Flock Blocker’ and protests against Flock Safety’s automated license-plate reader (ALPR) cameras by sitting near them and h...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

It's not very practical, blocking one camera at a time and the guy seems like he needs to be there to block the camera.
Click to expand...
Oh! I forgot about that guy. Yeah, I saw him a few days ago. Not all heroes wear capes...
 
172andyou said:
Let's just nip this in the bud. The US is a democracy. We elect our representatives.
Click to expand...

Sure, let's nip this in the bud... wondering if you were an "A" student in High School Civics class? Was there even a Civics Class that taught this type of subject? Or did the curriculum include important stuff like learning how to expeditiously put a condom on a banana?

Per AI:
A democracy is a system in which political power ultimately comes from the people, usually through voting.

A constitutional republic is a system in which:
  • The people elect representatives to govern.
  • Government power is limited by a written constitution.
  • Laws and institutions protect individual and minority rights.
  • Even elected officials must follow constitutional rules.
 
Rick A said:
Sure, let's nip this in the bud... wondering if you were an "A" student in High School Civics class? Was there even a Civics Class that taught this type of subject? Or did the curriculum include important stuff like learning how to expeditiously put a condom on a banana?

Per AI:
A democracy is a system in which political power ultimately comes from the people, usually through voting.

A constitutional republic is a system in which:
  • The people elect representatives to govern.
  • Government power is limited by a written constitution.
  • Laws and institutions protect individual and minority rights.
  • Even elected officials must follow constitutional rules.
Click to expand...
While I agree with your post, I wish you'd cite something other than AI because AI doesn't differentiate between the good or bad data it has scraped up. An AI also tries to please the user, so the results I see often don't match the results you see. I've often gotten different results from an AI on the same search a day later!

This would be a better citation that agrees with your post:

I'll note that we directly elect governors, for example, so parts of our government is a democracy. I'm probably splitting hairs here.
 
There is plenty of case law that license plates fall under the plain view exception to the 4th amendment.
 
Rick A said:
Sure, let's nip this in the bud... wondering if you were an "A" student in High School Civics class? Was there even a Civics Class that taught this type of subject? Or did the curriculum include important stuff like learning how to expeditiously put a condom on a banana?

Per AI:
A democracy is a system in which political power ultimately comes from the people, usually through voting.

A constitutional republic is a system in which:
  • The people elect representatives to govern.
  • Government power is limited by a written constitution.
  • Laws and institutions protect individual and minority rights.
  • Even elected officials must follow constitutional rules.
Click to expand...
Couple things to note. First is that your AI quote doesn't contradict my post in any way. But, since you like AI...

1787850075785.png
 
Cap'n Jack said:
While I agree with your post, I wish you'd cite something other than AI because AI doesn't differentiate between the good or bad data it has scraped up. An AI also tries to please the user, so the results I see often don't match the results you see. I've often gotten different results from an AI on the same search a day later!

This would be a better citation that agrees with your post:

I'll note that we directly elect governors, for example, so parts of our government is a democracy. I'm probably splitting hairs here.
Click to expand...

Good points. The particular AI answer to the what's the difference between the two raw forms of government that I quoted is simple, and correct. There are certainly a myriad of combinations and blends of these two basic forms to show as examples, including our own, so definitions become complex.

To the best of my knowledge the US Constitution was created before our system of government was changed and amended for various reported reasons throughout our 250 year experiment of citizen controlled government, per Lincoln's 1863 Gettysburg Address defining us as a “...government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

Does the above quote still have Constitutional merit? In my opinion, no.... not while our elected officials remain mostly unaccountable while they continue to sell their influence to the highest bidders, which often include foreign and anti-American citizen interests.
 
172andyou said:
The vast majority of the ones I've looked at are on public land, so I'm not sure how you would block them without tampering with the device itself or setting up a physical barrier in front of it, neither of which seem like they would be legal since you own neither the device nor the land needed to setup the barrier. If you happened to live on a corner that had one pointed toward your lot, I can't think of any reason why blocking its view by planting bushes or trees would be an issue.
Click to expand...

Well a well organized First Amendment protest could have words put on a poster on a pole and held in front of the cameras.
 
Ed Haywood said:
There is plenty of case law that license plates fall under the plain view exception to the 4th amendment.
Click to expand...
Yes, but not storing that information for every vehicle, then using a global database to track every person's movements and make it available without any sort of warrant, probably cause, nor reasonably articulable suspicion.

Do a quick search on "mosaic theory" as applied to the 4th Amendment, then re-read the quotes I listed above from recent SCOTUS decisions.
 
"Big Brother is watching you."
 
Nothing Flocked in Alaska.

Only state that can say that for now.

Mike
 
jbarrass said:
For now. Florida has revoked all the Flock camera permits, effective at the end of the month.
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Florida has only revoked them at the state level, which is only about 2% of the actual coverage. As I understand it, the contracts and surveillance hardware remain in place in many counties and cities.

“The Flock in Florida, 98% are local,” Ron DeSantis said. “We’re going to clear state right-of-ways.”

The order applies to the State Highway System — interstates like I-10 and I-75. It does not touch cameras on city roads, county roads, or private property, which is where the overwhelming majority of them are.


So a measure being reported as banning Flock cameras in Florida directly affects roughly one in fifty of them.
Click to expand...


It's also an executive order, not a law. The next governor to take office in January can immediately rescind it (or not).
 
StraightnLevel said:
Florida has only revoked them at the state level, which is only about 2% of the actual coverage. As I understand it, the contracts and surveillance hardware remain in place in many counties and cities.


It's also an executive order, not a law. The next governor to take office in January can immediately rescind it (or not).
Click to expand...
A lot of the County Sheriffs are taking it as a rule and cancelling contracts. Not happily either, since they are very valuable for solving many crimes and critical in Florida, tracking down grandpa when he goes missing.
 
StraightnLevel said:
It's also an executive order, not a law. The next governor to take office in January can immediately rescind it (or not).
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Actually, It was FDOT revoking all the permits.

But sure, maybe they could re-apply for new permits and maybe a future FDOT will approve them. Might not fly under the radar next time though.
 
Lindberg said:
It's really a shame that so many "conservatives" have had the communist wool pulled over their eyes on this. Just in my city, there are scores of serious crimes that would have gone unsolved without this tool.
Click to expand...

Jeez. Cut down on serious crimes you say? Yippee.

Maybe "conservatives" would rather have judicial systems that actually remove criminals off the streets, deport, jail or execute them. I'm sick of law-abiding good people being raped or murdered by known criminals who've been arrested 20+ times for serious crimes, then released to continue. You actually believe cameras and tracking devices are going to fix that?

Many forward thinking people who appreciate personal freedoms don't like or appreciate massive people watch and tracking systems becoming controlled by unknown people that believe everyone outside their residence could be a criminal, until positively determined by unknown entities that they're not. With the advent of cameras inside your phone, vehicle, television or computer you don't even need to be outside to be watched and listened to. Anywhere will do. For our safety/sarc
 
Rick A said:
With the advent of cameras inside your phone, vehicle, television or computer you don't even need to be outside to be watched and listened to. Anywhere will do. For our safety/sarc
Click to expand...

The list of wifi networks your laptop (or phone) has connected to is as identifiable as a finger print. If you leave wifi on on that device, every wireless network in its range can be used to track your movements. Whether you connect to those networks or not.
 
Lindberg said:
It's really a shame that so many "conservatives" have had the communist wool pulled over their eyes on this. Just in my city, there are scores of serious crimes that would have gone unsolved without this tool.
Click to expand...
It's interesting that you are defending a system used in a country that you have claimed is "communist", the People's Republic of China. They use something functionally equivalent to Flock, but with face recognition added. They also use something like SignalTrace (1) which captures all your electronic emissions- cell phone, WiFi, Bluetooth, RFID tags, and others. They use the system to track people whose "serious crime" is being critical of the government. We don't need that in the USA.

(1) https://www.leonardocompany-us.com/lpr/elsag-signaltrace
 
More on Flock... innocent lady framed by Flock spends 13 days in a Florida jail before the realization Flock was info was mis-interpreted by police. Multiple felony charges were dropped. Hope she receives an apology.

Flock Camera Ping Jails Innocent Woman For 13 Days<!-- --> | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com www.zerohedge.com
 
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