Oshkosh arrival for LSAs

rhkennerly

rhkennerly

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rhkennerly
I’ve been watching the traffic arrival at KOSH on ForeFlight (and listening on LiveATC). I read the ultralight/LSA arrival info in THE NOTICE that starts at the intersection of Hwy 26 & County road Z.

what I don't understand is how does an LSA pilot get to that initial point to join the arrival for the ultralight field?

clearly we're too slow--generally--to join the Fisk arrival. And besides, I never hear anyone breaking out of Fisk for the UL field from that arrival.

does an LSA OR Ultralight pilot just freelance it at 1,100 MSL enroute to the hwy 26 & z initial point?
 
Super secret squirrel handshake required

Are LSA's even allowed at Oshkosh?

LSA's are the Michelob Ultra of aviation: change my mind
 
Rich Holt said:
Super secret squirrel handshake required

Are LSA's even allowed at Oshkosh?
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Of course they are. In fact, LSAs can even land at the big airport & taxi to LSA/ULTRA parking, but it’s a long taxi to the South 40. The UL field is where they hold the Twilight STOL demonstration flights in the evening. So it attracts a lot of the STOL competition crowd.
 
rhkennerly said:
clearly we're too slow--generally--to join the Fisk arrival.
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Speak for yourself. My LSA has no trouble whatsoever keeping up.
Rich Holt said:
LSA's are the Michelob Ultra of aviation: change my mind
Click to expand...
I really couldn't care less what you think, so I won't try to change your mind. But lest anyone who doesn't know any better think you have a clue what you're talking about, they should keep in mind that "LSA" covers a very wide swath of airplanes from "fat ultralights" up to planes like the RV-12 and Sling. The LSA I fly is faster and way more fun to fly than any of the 172s or Cherokees I flew during training, but maybe those aren't "real" airplanes either.
 
"For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots: Slower aircraft should use maximum cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT if practicable."
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots: Slower aircraft should use maximum cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT if practicable."
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Yeah, I see that but I never see LSAs breaking out of the Fisk or the FdL Approach breakout for the UL field.
 
Rich Holt said:
Super secret squirrel handshake required

Are LSA's even allowed at Oshkosh?

LSA's are the Michelob Ultra of aviation: change my mind
Click to expand...
It’s O’Doul’s Non Alcholic Weenie Beer. Actually saw that on a Menu once
 
rhkennerly said:
Yeah, I see that but I never see LSAs breaking out of the Fisk or the FdL Approach breakout for the UL field.
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Fisk is the route into the main runways. No reason you can't come in that way with an LSA.

Ultralights come in from Hwy 26 and County Rd Z near the Quarry approximately 5 miles Southwest of Oshkosh, 300 AGL.

pic3b.ashx

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-...t-arrivals/ultralight-flight-pattern-overview

edit: You already said that back in the first post. Never mind.
 
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DaleB said:
I really couldn't care less what you think, so I won't try to change your mind. But lest anyone who doesn't know any better think you have a clue what you're talking about, they should keep in mind that "LSA" covers a very wide swath of airplanes from "fat ultralights" up to planes like the RV-12 and Sling.
Click to expand...

Some folks believe they make themselves taller by stepping on others. The only opinion that counts concerning your plane is your own.
 
rhkennerly said:
I’ve been watching the traffic arrival at KOSH on ForeFlight (and listening on LiveATC). I read the ultralight/LSA arrival info in THE NOTICE that starts at the intersection of Hwy 26 & County road Z.

what I don't understand is how does an LSA pilot get to that initial point to join the arrival for the ultralight field?

clearly we're too slow--generally--to join the Fisk arrival. And besides, I never hear anyone breaking out of Fisk for the UL field from that arrival.

does an LSA OR Ultralight pilot just freelance it at 1,100 MSL enroute to the hwy 26 & z initial point?
Click to expand...

Most LSAs can handle 100-110 knots and quite a few are faster than your average 172 so I am not sure what are you worrying about …
 
Warmi said:
Most LSAs can handle 100-110 knots and quite a few are faster than your average 172 so I am not sure what are you worrying about …
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He did say "clearly we're too slow" i.e. we as him and someone else. Could be the pilot and a 60 knot cub that's in the way of the 120 knot light sport planes blowing past him, the Cessna & piper trainers, and running along with the early non turbo Commanders ... ;)
 
You've helped me sharpen my question. Let me try again.

What was noticing was that the Fisk, F du L/warbird arrivals were so long 20 to 30 miles, but the Ultralight arrival started just 5 miles out. So in theory, if one came in from the west at, say, Endeavour Bridge, an LSA landing at the Ultralight Field can skip the Fisk line altogether and make a beeline for the intersection of 26 & County Rd. Z, as long as they were at 300 ft MSL as they ducked under the shelf. (And obviously not cutting through the Fisk Conga line at 1800.)

is that about right?
 
Daleandee said:
Some folks believe they make themselves taller by stepping on others. The only opinion that counts concerning your plane is your own.
Click to expand...
Quite true. Some people have a very limited and myopic view of life, let alone aviation.
 
DaleB said:
Quite true. Some people have a very limited and myopic view of life, let alone aviation.
Click to expand...

particularly on the homebuilt & sport forum. I chose the kit & built it myself for my mission profile, so those digs become personal. I probably wrecked more L-19s in Vietnam than he’s owned airplanes.
 
rhkennerly said:
You've helped me sharpen my question. Let me try again.

What was noticing was that the Fisk, F du L/warbird arrivals were so long 20 to 30 miles, but the Ultralight arrival started just 5 miles out. So in theory, if one came in from the west at, say, Endeavour Bridge, an LSA landing at the Ultralight Field can skip the Fisk line altogether and make a beeline for the intersection of 26 & County Rd. Z, as long as they were at 300 ft MSL as they ducked under the shelf. (And obviously not cutting through the Fisk Conga line at 1800.)

is that about right?
Click to expand...

Without referring to the notam, that sounds technically correct and logically wrong. The ultralight arrival exists to separate slow aircraft. They have a max speed of 55 kts, so any LSA is going to be very out of place with them and cause trouble. Don’t do it.

what LSA are you considering that cannot fly 90 kts? Or you just don’t want to get in line?
 
Daleandee said:
He did say "clearly we're too slow"
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There is no too slow.
To quote the NOTAM: "For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots: Slower aircraft should use maximum cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT if practicable."

bflynn said:
what LSA are you considering that cannot fly 90 kts?
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If I put the pedal to the metal, I can push my ride to 70. 90 only happens going downhill. OTOH, I can do a stop and go on less than 1000 feet of runway.
 
bflynn said:
Without referring to the notam, that sounds technically correct and logically wrong. The ultralight arrival exists to separate slow aircraft. They have a max speed of 55 kts, so any LSA is going to be very out of place with them and cause trouble. Don’t do it.

what LSA are you considering that cannot fly 90 kts? Or you just don’t want to get in line?
Click to expand...

actually, what is attractive over on the UL field is the twilight STOL demos (my peeps!) and a lot of LSA builders/sellers are there because demo flights are much, much easier from the uncontrolled UL field. they come & go when we want as long as the TFR is not active. (With some coordination on the ground, of course.)

Per the NOTICE, LSA (as designated by N number), are acceptable for UL parking/camping as an upper limit on aircraft size. However, pilots must be comfortable with a 900 ft grass runway with obstacles.

I am building a Bushcat. With tundra tires for STOL & the doors off limit of 80, 90 is not in the cards. With standard tires & buttoned up, no problem.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There is no too slow.
To quote the NOTAM: "For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots: Slower aircraft should use maximum cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT if practicable."
Click to expand...

The "too slow" came from him, not me. I was just guessing as to what the context was and pointing out that saying LSAs were too slow is not correct as they are allowed to cruise at a speed that is greater than a number of certified i.e. "real" airplanes. But I appreciate the clarification on the arrival process ...
 
Daleandee said:
The "too slow" came from him, not me. I was just guessing as to what the context was and pointing out that saying LSAs were too slow is not correct as they are allowed to cruise at a speed that is greater than a number of certified i.e. "real" airplanes. But I appreciate the clarification on the arrival process ...
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I was impressed Sunday when a Lear 24 flew the Fisk at 90. For the rest of the day the controllers shamed those who complained they couldn’t fly that slow.

Otherwise, if you couldn’t run 90, they kept you to the left & sent traffic to the right around you.
 
rhkennerly said:
I was impressed Sunday when a Lear 24 flew the Fisk at 90. For the rest of the day the controllers shamed those who complained they couldn’t fly that slow.
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From what little I know about that plane a 90 kt approach would be really close to the edge ... :eek:
 
Daleandee said:
From what little I know about that plane a 90 kt approach would be really close to the edge ... :eek:
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Wikipedia: Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h, 87 kn) (gear and flaps down) - IAS

Yea. I assume they were significantly under gross (Empty weight: 7,130 lb (3,234 kg)Max takeoff weight: 13,500 lb (6,123 kg) )- that would help a lot. But, yea.
 
Cleverly hidden in the Notice (formerly Notam), and further obscured by appearing in the table of contents to be easier to find, is the Ultralight/Homebuilt Rotorcraft Arrival/Departure for Airventure. You need approval from Ultralight Flightline Operations by calling the phone number listed in the Notice. This is a NORDO arrival but they ask you to monitor a couple frequencies as you come in, if you have a radio. The procedures are flown at 1100 MSL (300 AGL) so they are below the Fisk arrivals. The traffic pattern is a bit weird. And it looks like an absolute freaking blast. The biggest smile I've ever seen on a human was a guy flying his weird homebuilt ultralight plane around the pattern at the ultralight field during Airventure.
 
So there I was, wanting to fly into Oshkosh in my Pietenpol, I just can’t get radios to work worth a hoot… so I went in to the ultra light field. Worked great, NORDO is the procedure there.

So if you’re NOT CLOSE to 90, or NORDO, it’s a good choice. And ya, much less structured. Requires attention and the ability to recognize and adapt, on your own.
 
90 is an odd speed for me. My gear speed is 87 and they want the gear down at that point. I push it a bit.

Still, in most cases, this isn't designed to be an approach-to-landing speed. Even in the venerable skyhawk, that's way to fast. Still, none of these planes have a hard time slowing down on short base/final.
 
rhkennerly said:
I was impressed Sunday when a Lear 24 flew the Fisk at 90. For the rest of the day the controllers shamed those who complained they couldn’t fly that slow.

Otherwise, if you couldn’t run 90, they kept you to the left & sent traffic to the right around you.
Click to expand...
I can do between 70-120 comfortably so I'm not sure I'd want to try the UL field. Besides, you don't get to rock your wings.
 
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