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Discussion in 'Airventure' started by Somedudeintn, May 2, 2019.
Thanks for posting.
So...they did not change it?
Were the organized approaches to fond-du-loc and appleton there before?
A lengthy discussion here:
Pretty disappointing there were no meaningful changes. The FLD bailout will be a cluster because they know it's not going to be first come first serve. They will be stuck on the ground until they just decide to launch on their own. Once the bickering on the radio begins people will start bailing out and trying to join the arrival again. What didn't help last year is that people kept re-entering the arrival from the holding pattern as well as people who were just getting there. The notam states you should hold until ATC releases you so why didn't people do this? Well it's because they would send everyone away, but the few who didn't listen and stayed the course would get waived in. If there are going to be rules everyone has to follow them. There needs to be another controller on the ground at Ripon and at the lakes turning rogue aircraft away, controlling the "gates".
Once the airport re-opens treat the lakes like Fisk until they are empty while instructing the people arriving at Ripon to go find a landmark and circle. Once the lakes are cleared out open the Ripon gate again. Make people tape their N number on the bottom of their wing so those who cannot follow directions get reprimanded.
My opinion is that they mostly needed to "fix" whatever was causing them to bottleneck landings. That is not controllable by the pilots or in the NOTAM. That's controlled by folks and conditions on the ground at Oshkosh. There was no excuse last year for the absence of landing traffic on 36L&R.
Yes. The only big procedural difference is the presence of the Fond du Lac bailout. Other than that, they're having everyone leave their transponders on, and... That's about it.
I'm fine with that, though, since most of the earlier proposed solutions weren't going to fix anything, they were just going to move the problems farther away from the airport, and create new problems. I like where they ended up.
What would you suggest they should have done?
My reading of it is that those who use the bailout will get priority handling of sorts to get back into OSH. It at least sounds like it could work. I don't think they're going to be splitting some people off to Fond du Lac and letting some people in to OSH, I think they're going to use it as a relief valve for when they have to completely stop arrivals for a while. It only takes 20 minutes or so for the existing holds to be completely saturated when there are no arrivals being let in, and after the 20 minutes is up, they're going to still have more airplanes coming in... That's how last year happened.
But, if there's an accident, or some mass arrivals or something... Send everyone to FLD until the field opens, and when the field is about to open, round up everyone who bailed to FLD and send them directly to OSH on 36, while using 9/27 to handle the new traffic trickling in from Fisk, turbine/warbird arrivals, and possibly some of the faster guys from FLD.
Green Lake hold is supposed to exit the hold via the Ripon "gate", though...
Also, who do you think they'll be able to reprimand? Those who don't follow directions wouldn't have taped their N numbers to their wings either...
I listed my suggestions and you responded so not sure where the confusion is about what I would suggest.. I just don’t see how the FLD bailout is going to do anything but create more congestion once they start letting arrivals back in. And yes Ripon is the gate like I said. I’d imagine it wouldn’t be hard to tell Whois exiting the hold and who is just arriving for the first time. If not set up another entry point so you can turn away new arrivals until the hold has been emptied. And lastly, no visible N number from the ground no entry to the show.
Make it a requirement to get into OSH. No N-number taped on the bottom of the wing, no landing clearance. Or do what we do at Pontiac during Operation Good Cheer. VFR arrival slots.
Worst situation in 20 years. IFR wx under Sunday of the show. The only lake big enough to get everyone in a neat line was Lake Michigan. There were too many airplanes at the same time. No procedure will ever change that, ever.
And in the midst of all that, no one ran into anyone else.
Yes, exactly this.
It was a brutal year with something like three days of arrivals backed up when the weather finally went comfortably VFR Sunday afternoon.
There are only two ways to solve that problem:
1) Reservations. No one wants this complexity and hassle.
2) Using your damn mind and landing at FLD! I wasn't happy to have to make that decision, but it's what I did to cope with the reality of the circumstances. FLD was busy-ish, but no problem at all. Parked and took the bus. Planned on fetching the plane and flying it in a few days later, but ended up camping with some people and never bothered. Took the bus back when I was ready to leave and didn't have to deal with a 20+ minute taxi line to depart OSH.
Yeah, I landed out when I got low on fuel. Monday morning wasn't much better, and my landing wasn't a thing of joy. That said, it was the worst situation I've witnessed in 20 years and no one ran into anyone. We all got a lot closer to each other than we linked, but the damn procedures work.
I flew into Watertown on Friday to spend the night. Woke up Saturday morning to find fog. When it finally lifted, we headed toward OSH. So did everyone else that had stopped at a nearby airport on Friday. The scariest part for me was the ceilings were so low, that the faster planes that normally fly higher were down with us. I watched a V-tail Bonanza make two circles in front of me, then the third time, he made a wider circle and came in behind me. I had visions of him cutting off my tail! I was in a 170, which has no rear window, so I had no way to see how far back he was. Still, we made it in safely, without being put into a hold. We landed, parked, put up our tents, and then it started to pour. Of course my raincoat was safe and dry back at home.
What it's better at is keeping the holds from being saturated and having people wait on the ground instead of in the air, and prioritizing new vs. previous arrivals. Let's say the field is closed for an hour due to a crash. The holds are saturated in 20 minutes, and we pretty much know it's gonna be longer than that... So use the bailout procedure.
When the field opens back up, FLD can perfectly sequence the planes. Everyone flies at 90 knots and 1800 feet the whole way, including the climb if possible, and FLD can clear one for takeoff every 20 seconds to get half-mile-in-trail spacing. Osh tower could land them all on 18 or 36, with a few going to 9 or 27 if spacing gets messed up, and any new arrivals that come in via Fisk can be sent to 9/27.
One of the things that needs to stop happening is people being assigned a runway and then asking for the other one. That's fine if Fisk *asks* you which runway you want, but if they're busy and don't have time to ask you, they certainly don't have time to change their plan for you, and now you're eating up their frequency time. So, please, SHUT UP!!!
In some ways, the Fond du Lac bailout provides that, but if there's traffic coming out of Fond du Lac already, it doesn't make much sense to send everyone there, have them land, have them take off again and go back up to OSH. This is where the Waupun to Ripon leg might make sense, *if* it was only in use when stated to be so in the arrival ATIS, and only when the holds get saturated. Then, it'd be easier for the holds to be cleared while distinguishing holding vs. arriving traffic, but it'd require some controllers to head down to Ripon. And since the scenario we saw last year is exceedingly rare, that's probably why they didn't do it.
Ya know, I'm starting to warm to this idea. It would really eliminate a lot of the confusion that happens at Fisk when you have five white high-wings in a row and such. A few things would need to be solved, though:
1) The Fisk controllers are usually issuing instructions earlier than they would be able to see a tail number under the wing. They see you at a half mile out, have you rock your wings, give you the instruction, and you should already be making the turn or going straight by the time you're overhead. They could try to get some land a half mile farther down the tracks and move the controllers there, but that might not work well - Right now, they're on top of a small hill.
2) There would probably need to be some special kind of tape used for the N numbers. Even at GA speeds, plain old duct tape doesn't stay on, and that's pretty strong stuff (not to mention it leaves residue). Painter's tape is easy to get off, but it probably wouldn't even make it through the takeoff roll. Electrical tape? Maybe, but it's not as "fat" so the numbers would be hard to read.
3) Let's say your number does peel off, even partially, in flight: Unless you have a high wing, you won't know it, and if you lose just one number it might create more confusion than it solves.
I guess we're going to have to go back to requiring tail numbers be painted on wings, right? Oh wait, that sucks the rest of the time when GA haters can see our tail numbers from even farther away.
Maybe, we should accept that last year was an anomaly and that this is the 50th anniversary of Oshkosh and this will be the 44th year of using the Fisk arrival procedure and it's done awfully well for all those other years, and not over-think or over-do things.
1) You can paint anything you want on the underside of your wings with Tempera paint. Unless you fly through a substantial amount of rain, the message will be there when you cross Fisk.
2) The Fisk arrival procedure is fine. The controllers not utilizing the available runways last year took a weather problem and turned into a boondoggle. The question, which the EAA is treating as the "third rail", is what were those controllers thinking and what has changed to prevent it from happening again? Presumably, the EAA doesn't want to point fingers at the FAA/Controllers because the Fisk arrival is a sanctioned form of the Wild Wild West, and the FAA could put the brakes on it if it turned into a ****ing contest.
@Grum.Man I feel like I recognize that plane! Were you stuck waiting at DKB last year on Sunday?
That was me.
Thought so! We had the white arrow with the red and black stripes!
Yea man I remember you! Welcome to the forums! If I make it back to OSH this year I will definitely be stopping by for a top off again. Hopefully this time I want get stuck.
We are planning on being over Fisk Saturday morning around 8am, bright and early. Hopefully none of us get stuck anywhere!
Yeah, I'm not liking that idea. If you DO fly through rain, you'll end up spreading it all over your plane.
I talked to one of the controllers, and he said it was the EAA's problem. They kept doing the mass arrivals, military fly-bys, etc. on Sunday and kept opening/closing 18/36 so they had to slow arrivals down because of the lost capacity.
IMO, after the weather situation Friday and Saturday (and part of Sunday), EAA should have immediately cancelled ALL activities that would result in closed runways.
Fly-bys I understand. But don't mass arrivals result in *more* efficiency, rather than less?
When they are actually landing, yes. But if all 3 runways are effectively closed for 30 minutes for a 15 minute mass arrival on one of the runways, the efficiency gains are all lost.
I don't have the data in front of me, but my understanding was that even accounting for the entirety of the closure, that it was still a net gain in terms of planes per minute. Where did you hear otherwise?
That's not true if you're in a rental aircraft, because most rental places aren't going to let you paint their wings, even temporarily. Are rentals no longer going to be allowed? And if you have a show aircraft, are you going to want to paint the underside, even temporarily? And, in case the response is "wash it off when you get there", you've now grounded the aircraft until it's repainted. Too many problems with the idea. I think it's just unworkable, though well intentioned.
After talking with one of our volunteer controllers, it sounds like they are not gonna wait for the holds to saturate. As soon as the airport closes for any reason, everyone gets diverted to FLD, per the notam. Once the airport opens again, airplanes will be told to depart and head straight to OSH. Seems like an okay alternative to me!
As if folks will do what they’re told.
Yeah, I guess you have a point there!
I just got my paper copy booklet in the mail. I’m getting excited for my first OSH!
I’ve probably said it here a dozen times, but what helped me most on my first trip was watching YouTube videos of the Fisk approach. When I got there, everything looked familiar.
Thanks for the input. I’ve been watching lots of YT videos, watched the Eaa webinar, and have practiced in X-Plane with google maps satellite imagery. I’ll ramp up my prep and it seems like the whole process is actually very straight forward if you already know what to expect.
You’ll be tense going in, and you should be, then you’ll land and realize it wasn’t as hard as you thought!
The Rush Lake and related holds in the old patterns were always a screw up if the issue was more than a few minute transient problem (which it never is). Even a minor incident on the runway ends up with six hundred people shooting down the taxiway from the FAA, to every EAA division including risk management, to some manager driving down with his kids (I **** you not). Not going to be cleared in minutes. Better to tell everybody, sorry the field's closed, the moose out front shoulda told you. Go land somewhere and check back later.
If the runways are open, there's nothing wrong with Fisk usually, but it doesn't take much on the ground to screw things up.
As long as you prepared properly. You never know what's going to happen there, so be ready, know what you're doing, and be ready to change what you're doing at a moment's notice.
Yes. If the field closes and traffic levels are average, the holds will be saturated in 20 minutes. If there's holding, get out. Luckily, this year there's the new option of the FLD bail-out route, which lets you get back into OSH without flying the full arrival again.
The FLD.bailout sounds like institutionalized wishful thinking. If Osh can’t handle all that traffic what makes them think FLD is going to do it any better?
I was kinda thinking the same thing.
Bail to Portage. They put the (free) brats into the hot beer at 8 am.
There is a donation pot next to the crockpot, and most of us kick in a few bucks a brat to prime the pump for next year. That same brat on the field is $6.50
It's not used for a glut of traffic. If you show up at the same time as five other planes, you're still getting sent back to the hold. It's good for those who are in the air when the field closes, show up at Fisk and can't land at OSH... This way, they get put on the ground, 1/2 mile in trail, just at a different field. Don't keep your half mile in trail, expect a trip around Rush Lake.