opinions please

bluee

bluee

Line Up and Wait
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My instrument instructor, who I like and think is really good, wanted me to fly with another instructor just to see what another instructor says. This instructor was just hired by my instructor (owner of small flight school). Well the flight with the new instructor was a waste of my time and money. I learned nothing because she taught nothing. She barely spoke for an hour. I'm learning to use the GPS, so I told her upfront that I'm learning and I want to put in the approach we're practicing. She said no, she wanted to put in the vor of the class C we're flying around to keep clear of the airspace. I was trying to point out that by putting in the approach I wanted, we'd see the ring on the gps and keep clear of the airspace. She spent the whole time messing with the gps (that I was paying to learn to use), and changing what I put in to what she wanted, and studying the approach plates. She was no help at all, offered no constructive criticism, didn't tell me what I'm doing wrong. What really ticked me off at the end is she charged me $15 to sign my logbook, labeling it "ground instruction". There was no ground instruction, there was barely any instruction at all. I left ticked off that I wasted money on a useless flight.

How much should I say to my instructor? I like him and don't want to upset him and sound like a whiney complainer, but I think flying with this other instructor was a waste of my money. If that was my first and only flight at that place, I would leave and not return. How honest should I be? I also don't want to fight over $15, but I'm still ticked off she charged me to sign my logbook. This other instructor just started last week, so I don't want to make an enemy so soon, but still, I'm not happy.
 
LOL. She charged you an hourly rate and $15 to put ink in your logbook? I think I would have refused to pay her.

I get an hourly fee and generally the "ground" we discuss while preparing for the flight is gratis.

She sounds like a fresh ink CFI.

$15 for a signature? What a rip.

I'd tell her boss the honest truth.

You hired her. Would you let a man mess up your car, floors, paint, etc when you hired them to do a job?
 
bluee said:
My instrument instructor, ..., wanted me to fly with another instructor just to see what another instructor says.
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I think you found out what another instructor says. You might pass your notes along to your CFII, along with a bill for your own 'services'.
 
Were I in your shoes I would sit both the main CFI and the emergency backup CFI in a room, and unload with both barrels. They would loose weight, as they wouldn't have sixes left after I chewed them off.

That said, I was under the impression that GPS's have manuals and tutorials and such. I wouldn't want to spend flight time learning how to program one. I would want to spend flight time learning how to fly what it tells me.
 
I'd start the conversation with "I don't know what she thinks of me, but since I'm the one who's writing the checks your biggest concern should be what I think of her. Do you agree?"

If his answer is yes, continue the conversation. If no, tell him adios and move on.
 
bluee said:
My instrument instructor, who I like and think is really good, wanted me to fly with another instructor just to see what another instructor says. This instructor was just hired by my instructor (owner of small flight school). Well the flight with the new instructor was a waste of my time and money. I learned nothing because she taught nothing. She barely spoke for an hour. I'm learning to use the GPS, so I told her upfront that I'm learning and I want to put in the approach we're practicing. She said no, she wanted to put in the vor of the class C we're flying around to keep clear of the airspace. I was trying to point out that by putting in the approach I wanted, we'd see the ring on the gps and keep clear of the airspace. She spent the whole time messing with the gps (that I was paying to learn to use), and changing what I put in to what she wanted, and studying the approach plates. She was no help at all, offered no constructive criticism, didn't tell me what I'm doing wrong. What really ticked me off at the end is she charged me $15 to sign my logbook, labeling it "ground instruction". There was no ground instruction, there was barely any instruction at all. I left ticked off that I wasted money on a useless flight.

How much should I say to my instructor?
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Everything.

I like him and don't want to upset him and sound like a whiney complainer, but I think flying with this other instructor was a waste of my money. If that was my first and only flight at that place, I would leave and not return. How honest should I be?
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Completely.
 
Yup -- time for a "come to Jesus" meeting with your instructor/her boss. If this isn't followed by a "come to Jesus" meeting between her and your instructor/her boss, it's time for you to tell the boss "I fly with you or I fly somewhere else."

That said, it sounds like she's a very new, very green instructor with little confidence in her own skills, both aeronautical and instructional. Make sure in your conversation with the boss that while you understand the need for her to develop, you can't be paying to be her "training dummy." You might consider offering to let her sit in the back and observe while you are receiving training from the boss, or to let her instruct you under the supervision of the boss from the back (and the boss can decide which of them pockets the instructor fee you pay).

As for the ground training issue, did she actually log half an hour of ground training, citing the areas covered? If so, what did she write? If she didn't give you the ground training she put in your log and signed, that's a serious legal and ethical violation for an instructor.
 
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I've had an "evaluation" by another instructor where they didn't say much except for issuing tasks, and then they were covered in the debrief, just like a mock checkride. That doesn't sound like what you got, though. You should have your meeting with the boss, and get your instruction $$$ back.
 
I'm confused. Did she charge you an hourly rate plus $15 or just $15 total.

wabower said:
I'd start the conversation with "I don't know what she thinks of me, but since I'm the one who's writing the checks your biggest concern should be what I think of her. Do you agree?"

If his answer is yes, continue the conversation. If no, tell him adios and move on.
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I agree. And if he says yes, have a copy of this thread with you, simply hand it to him and let him read it so he'll know that your opinion is shared by many.
 
Did she charge you hobbs time plus $15? That's probably reasonable... she spent at least 10 minutes talking to you and getting into the plane before you cranked it up and probably ten minutes de-planing (is that really a word). You do owe her for that time even if she did not teach you anything.

When I have a lesson I pay the instructor for his time beginning when we meet at the airport. Normally I show up 15 minutes before and pre-flight, so I am not paying him to sit around while I preflight the plane. after our flight, he goes in the building and signs my logbook / fills out my training record while I tie the plane down. When I walk in the hangar I get my logbook from him, note the time.. and write him a check. Technically I do pay him for signing my log.
 
Shooting the breeze during a preflight should not be charged as ground time.

Nor should an instructor get into a habit of "selling" their signature.
 
I once had a back up CFI fill in for me during my Private training. He was a very nice guy but he wouldn't let me do anything. He preflighted the plane, insisted on working the raidos, Set the OBS made the radio calls etc. I of course preflighted anyway but found the rest of the flight so un educational I cut it short and came back. I said something to my CFI. Where it went who knows, It did make me appreciate the value of my own training.
 
I had an instructor ones who charged me for the time I was in the bathroom.
That was the last time I had anything to do with him.
 
We need a new thread - "Dumb CFI tricks.."
 
I've never had a problem with a CFI charging me for time. The clock starts when we start talking business, and stops when we stop talking business. That's sounds fair to me - I would have saved some money had I only been charged for Hobbs time, but that wouldn't be fair to the CFI.

But - being encouraged to take along another CFI for a second opinion, like a mock check-ride, and then being charged when no instruction, or opinion, was given? That's a little much.
 
I am more concerned about the fact that you she didn't teach you anything. The ground time I am not going to comment on.

Matthew said:
I think you found out what another instructor says. You might pass your notes along to your CFII, along with a bill for your own 'services'.
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I agree, it is lame to make someone pay to be a guinea pig.
 
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So I had another lesson today with my regular instructor. First I want to say that I have never complained about a bill, and my CFII does charge for ground instruction when there is in fact ground instruction. I have no problem with that.

Anyway, when I got there, the first thing he asked me is what I thought of my flight with the other instructor. I told him what I thought, while trying to stay polite and not mean. He didn't look too happy, but said he wanted to hear my honest opinion because otherwise he wouldn't know. He did not charge me for instruction today to cover what I paid last time, so I'm happy with that. Today was a good flight, in the rain. It was good practice, and the approaches we did today were pretty good. So I'm back to being happy.
 
Sounds like you are dealing with a good guy who understands the customer's position in the pecking order.

bluee said:
So I had another lesson today with my regular instructor. First I want to say that I have never complained about a bill, and my CFII does charge for ground instruction when there is in fact ground instruction. I have no problem with that.

Anyway, when I got there, the first thing he asked me is what I thought of my flight with the other instructor. I told him what I thought, while trying to stay polite and not mean. He didn't look too happy, but said he wanted to hear my honest opinion because otherwise he wouldn't know. He did not charge me for instruction today to cover what I paid last time, so I'm happy with that. Today was a good flight, in the rain. It was good practice, and the approaches we did today were pretty good. So I'm back to being happy.
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bluee said:
So I had another lesson today with my regular instructor. First I want to say that I have never complained about a bill, and my CFII does charge for ground instruction when there is in fact ground instruction. I have no problem with that.

Anyway, when I got there, the first thing he asked me is what I thought of my flight with the other instructor. I told him what I thought, while trying to stay polite and not mean. He didn't look too happy, but said he wanted to hear my honest opinion because otherwise he wouldn't know. He did not charge me for instruction today to cover what I paid last time, so I'm happy with that. Today was a good flight, in the rain. It was good practice, and the approaches we did today were pretty good. So I'm back to being happy.
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Happy is good. And I'm glad you told him your honest opinion. One of the reasons I'll NEVER go back to my old instructor (other than maybe a BFR or a checkout) is because when I would tell him what I was thinking or doing it would start an argument.
 
bluee said:
So I had another lesson today with my regular instructor. First I want to say that I have never complained about a bill, and my CFII does charge for ground instruction when there is in fact ground instruction. I have no problem with that.

Anyway, when I got there, the first thing he asked me is what I thought of my flight with the other instructor. I told him what I thought, while trying to stay polite and not mean. He didn't look too happy, but said he wanted to hear my honest opinion because otherwise he wouldn't know. He did not charge me for instruction today to cover what I paid last time, so I'm happy with that. Today was a good flight, in the rain. It was good practice, and the approaches we did today were pretty good. So I'm back to being happy.
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I'm glad it worked out for you. You and your CFI seem to have a good level of communications now, and he probably won't do that to anymore students again.

I still wonder if he was really wanting you to get a second opinion of yourself from another CFI, or wanting you to give HIM a second opinion of another CFI. Either way, it seems like you two worked out a fair arrangement.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Happy is good. And I'm glad you told him your honest opinion. One of the reasons I'll NEVER go back to my old instructor (other than maybe a BFR or a checkout) is because when I would tell him what I was thinking or doing it would start an argument.
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~~~~~~~unless it was just a heartfelt discussion in an amicable way or you had done something truly dangerous and he was momentarily upset I would have so fired him.

It's good that the CFI in this thread made good and wants honesty.
 
dell30rb said:
When I have a lesson I pay the instructor for his time beginning when we meet at the airport. Normally I show up 15 minutes before and pre-flight, so I am not paying him to sit around while I preflight the plane. after our flight, he goes in the building and signs my logbook / fills out my training record while I tie the plane down. When I walk in the hangar I get my logbook from him, note the time.. and write him a check. Technically I do pay him for signing my log.
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In your club instruction rates are low ($25/hour) and instructors charge for complete time from meeting you to saying "good bye". It is club "tradition", common practice. I used to fly there.
When I moved to California and found out instruction rates here are $40/hour I expected higher bils. However here instructors charge by Hobbs or very close to Hobbs for instruction time. So my instruction bill was the same as in North Carolina.
 
Artiom said:
In your club instruction rates are low ($25/hour) and instructors charge for complete time from meeting you to saying "good bye". It is club "tradition", common practice. I used to fly there.
When I moved to California and found out instruction rates here are $40/hour I expected higher bils. However here instructors charge by Hobbs or very close to Hobbs for instruction time. So my instruction bill was the same as in North Carolina.
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I've seen $49, $65, and $55 (these are three CFI's that I paid). My tailwheel which hasn't happened yet is $50.

Where in CA are you getting $40 and Hobbs Time only? That seems like a good deal. Was this in 2011?
 
My CFII is $50/hour, and worth it. I learn something new every time and think the time is useful.
 
bluee said:
My CFII is $50/hour, and worth it. I learn something new every time and think the time is useful.
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Oh yeah, that's right, your post reminded me:

From what I've seen, the "normal" rates for basic training go up by $5 per hour or $10 per hour for "advanced" training such as instrument ratings or commercial.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I've seen $49, $65, and $55 (these are three CFI's that I paid). My tailwheel which hasn't happened yet is $50.

Where in CA are you getting $40 and Hobbs Time only? That seems like a good deal. Was this in 2011?
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That was at California Airways at Hayward winter 2011. Now I'm looking for getting instrumental rating at Reid Hillview and there are two schools with good rates: Aerodynamic Aviation with block rates $42.73 to $50 and Nice Air with $45.
 
Artiom said:
That was at California Airways at Hayward winter 2011. Now I'm looking for getting instrumental rating at Reid Hillview and there are two schools with good rates: Aerodynamic Aviation with block rates $42.73 to $50 and Nice Air with $45.
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Wow, thank you for the information. Unfortunately the $10 I may save per hour would be spent in gas and tolls and hobbs time at a towered airport (I train at an untowered airport that does have non-GPS approaches).
 
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