Operation El Dorado Canyon

Velocity173

Velocity173

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Messages
15,237
Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Great story on flying the F-111 in El Dorado Canyon. And I thought planning a 4 ship air assault was a pain. Shows just how much goes into planning an op of this magnitude. Couldn’t imagine trusting TFR at 200 ft in pitch black either.

 
Velocity173 said:
Great story on flying the F-111 in El Dorado Canyon. And I thought planning a 4 ship air assault was a pain. Shows just how much goes into planning an op of this magnitude. Couldn’t imagine trusting TFR at 200 ft in pitch black either.

Click to expand...
.
I was a WSO in F-111Es at RAF Upper Heyford in April of '86. We were tasked but never executed although the EF-111s that supported the mission did launch from UH.. For several months prior to the strike selected crews practiced long duration (multiple air refuelings) strike missions against targets in Scotland which were selected because they resembled the actual targets we would have attacked in Libya if executed. Speculation on the reason for the loss of Karma 52 included the last minute increase in fragged aircraft by the decision makers. This last minute increase in aircraft precluded replanning the ingress so all they had time to do was reproduce what had already been planned and have the additional aircraft fly the same track, Karma 52 was one of the last strikers if not the last, so by the time they were making their ingress, the Libyan air defenses were alerted and looking for them. Whether or not Karma 52 was hit or had maneuvered into the water trying to avoid getting hit, will never be known. Capts. Fernando Ribas-Dominicci and Paul F. Lorence were the two warriors lost on this mission. May they RIP.

One additional F-111F didn't make it back to RAF Lakenheath as it had an emergency and ended up landing in Rota Spain. Spain was not pleased.

I remember my mother phoning me from the States that morning surprised to hear me answer the phone, thinking I was in one of the F-111s striking Libya. She had heard about the strike from the SECDEF news release on the TV. Her call was the first I heard of the mission being executed and it came very early in morning before I would have been dressed and heading into the squadron.
 
This thread stirred up a few more memories for background information. Around a year prior to the strike, a proof of concept mission was flown by Upper Heyford F-111Es. Select crews were just pulled out of the squadron(s) with no explanations offered and disappeared for the duration of the mission including the time it took to plan (couple days). Several aircraft took off from Upper Heyford with tanker support and flew non-stop to a fake airfield carved out of the tundra in northern Canada. They dropped their bombs successfully on their targets and returned non-stop to Upper Heyford, a round trip roughly equivalent to what the Lakenheath F-111Fs flew to Libya. Of course we had no idea that the actual target being contemplated would be in Libya a year later. Full disclosure, I didn't fly this mission but several of my buddies did. I was one of the crewmembers on a short tether in April of '86 and we were eventually told that had the Lakenheath F-111s not achieved the desired effect, we would have been batting clean-up for a second strike.

The video mentioned that an F-111 crewman was on the tankers supporting the strike on Libya. It was a good thing because the tanker crew initially refused to push it up when the package was getting late. Apparently the tankers fly their flightplanned IAS religiously and it took a come to Jesus meeting between the F-111 guy and the tanker commander to get them to push it up and make up some time. I have a vision of the FWIC grad standing behind the aircraft commander with a pistol to his head telling him to push those throttles to the stop but that's probably an (slight) exaggeration, ;)
 
Cool info Witmo. I remember seeing this as a kid, or I guess recollections a few years later (I was 3 in '86). That and actually watching jets fly off the front end of a boat into darkness in 1991 on CNN were probably the two things that most influenced my decision to eventually fly fighters too (or fighter/attack :) )
 
Witmo said:
The video mentioned that an F-111 crewman was on the tankers supporting the strike on Libya. It was a good thing because the tanker crew initially refused to push it up when the package was getting late. Apparently the tankers fly their flightplanned IAS religiously and it took a come to Jesus meeting between the F-111 guy and the tanker commander to get them to push it up and make up some time. I have a vision of the FWIC grad standing behind the aircraft commander with a pistol to his head telling him to push those throttles to the stop but that's probably an (slight) exaggeration, ;)
Click to expand...

In my 20 years of Navy Tac-Air I found USAF tanker crews to be the most willing to flex a plan and others unwilling to change regardless of how much sense it made. During Desert Storm we were fragged for a 135 and he was IMC in a layer but the top of his vertical stab was sticking out of the layer. It looked like the opening scene of the movie Airplane. Asked him to bump it up 100' and he wouldn't. Seriously dude. We can tank IMC but it's a lot nicer 100' higher where you can see everyone.

Lost a engine on a TRANSPAC with 5 Prowlers and a KC-10 just past the half-way point once and that crew was amazing in doing whatever it took to keep the flight together, get the ALTREV changed and get us to Hawaii.
 
I read this post yesterday, and was going to comment, but didn't have time. I came back today, and read @Witmo's post. Serendipity.
Witmo said:
.
I was a WSO in F-111Es at RAF Upper Heyford in April of '86.
Click to expand...
What I was going to write was how, during one of my summers while attending the Colorado School for Wayward Boys, I was sent for 3 weeks to RAF Upper Heyford. It would have been the summer of 1989. For me, this summer was amazing. It was the first time out of the US for me, not including a family trip to Canada. I and five other of my classmates tearing up England as 19 and 20 year olds. Taking the train to London, chatting up "birds" in the pub, the list goes on.

Ostensibly, the trip was called "Operation Air Force" and the idea was that cadets would fan out to various bases all over the world and would spend three weeks seeing what the "real Air Force" was like. We'd spend a few days shadowing junior officers in different career fields so we got an idea of maybe what we wanted to do after graduation. A few days with the Security Forces, a couple more in Maintenance, then a couple in Intel. A few days shadowing a Personnel officer (I think we all played hookey for that tour). It was all very interesting, and it gave us a bit of an appreciation for other jobs, but it was all pretty much lost on us, because we were almost all PQ (pilot qualified) and we just wanted to hang out in Ops with the crews.

At night, after 6 hours of learning the intricacies of how to change a F-111 tire (basically, standing over three Enlisted Crew Chiefs, watching them change a tire). We would sit outside our BOQ rooms, drink beer and watch 30-foot blue flames shoot out of the back of the F-111s as they launched at dusk for night training sorties. We'd share our hopes and aspirations that in a few years, that might be us. We were young, wide-eyed, and motivated and all we wanted to do was "fly, fight, and win."

Finally, towards the end of the three weeks, in the most obvious case of "saving the best for last," we headed to Ops. That's why we were there. And those days spent in Ops were exactly what these young pilots-to-be needed. Learning what the day-to-day of an AF pilot was like. Okay... so the curtain was pulled back a bit and we saw that it wasn't all flying around, hair on fire... it was maybe long days in the vault, scheduling duties, paperwork, etc. But that didn't deter us, because that was all the price of admission. At the end of the week, we could cash in all our chits for our E-ticket ride in an F-111. We did egress training with the life support folks, got fitted for a helmet and mask, briefed and stepped to our jet. All I remember that this thing was massive. I was lucky enough, the summer prior to get an F-16 ride out at Luke AFB, and I just remember how much smaller the -16 was to this. The crew chief helped strap me in, and off we went. The flight was a blur, and I wish I had more vivid memories of it. I know we did a low-level through Scotland and the scenery was just fantastic, and I was able to keep from filling my sick-sack until we went into the break turn back at Upper Heyford.

But, from that ride, a F-111 fan was born. That's all I wanted to fly from that point on. I wanted to go to flight school, earn my wings, and get an F-111. That was my singular goal. Mother Air Force had other plans, though. The 90s were a rough time for pilots in the Air Force, with a huge surplus of pilots, and not nearly enough cockpits to put them in. The AF started to "bank" pilots... letting them finish flight training, but sending them to a desk job for 3-4 years to wait out this pilot "bubble" we had before getting back into an airplane. A full 2/3 of my UPT class was "banked." I was one of the lucky ones who did well enough to get an airplane straight out of training, but it wasn't the -111 I had been dreaming of. In fact, our class had exactly zero fighter cockpits. The number one graduate would usually have his pick of assignment... F-15C, F-16, A-10, whatever... our number one graduate took a C-141. That's what a year of hard work, top grades and excellent airmanship got you in late 1992. C'est la vie. That's all in the past, and I'm happy of my lot in life. But every once in a while, I'll see a picture or video of an F-111, or one mounted on a stick like they have at the Santa Fe airport, and think "if only..."
 
Sluggo63 said:
...90s were a rough time for pilots in the Air Force, with a huge surplus of pilots, and not nearly enough cockpits to put them in. The AF started to "bank" pilots... letting them finish flight training, but sending them to a desk job for 3-4 years to wait out this pilot "bubble" we had before getting back into an airplane. A full 2/3 of my UPT class was "banked." I was one of the lucky ones who did well enough to get an airplane straight out of training, but it wasn't the -111 I had been dreaming of. In fact, our class had exactly zero fighter cockpits. The number one graduate would usually have his pick of assignment... F-15C, F-16, A-10, whatever... our number one graduate took a C-141. That's what a year of hard work, top grades and excellent airmanship got you in late 1992. C'est la vie. That's all in the past, and I'm happy of my lot in life. But every once in a while, I'll see a picture or video of an F-111, or one mounted on a stick like they have at the Santa Fe airport, and think "if only..."
Click to expand...
After Desert Storm my squadron commander returned from a commander's conference and sat us all down for a briefing. He told all of us in certain year group's to take the bonus and punch out because the upcoming RIF (reduction in force) was going to be brutal and spare no one. If you weren't an EWO or patch wearer (FWIC) you could expect to be involuntarily released from the service if you didn't take the bonus and get out voluntarily. I was one of the lucky ones as an EWO who went to a desk job having made all my flying gates. I saw many of the best aviators this country had shown the door with little to show for their ten plus years of service. Guy's, just days from reporting for transition training to F-15Es ( F-111s were going to the boneyard), told to report to MPC for outprocessing. Thank you for your service now get out.
 
The 90s were rough. Hard to get accepted to different service pilot programs. Once you’re in, long bubbles prior to the start of training. Pilots being forced out after their initial obligation.

Kinda saw that after 2010 ish timeframe when the Army was drawing down. Knew Captains who got “pink slips” after getting back from deployment. OH-58 pilots forced out. They weren’t in the least bit interested in keeping me past 20…which was fine by me. Now, they’re hurting so bad for pilots they’ve got $40K bonuses and initial obligation for warrants went from 6 years to 10 years. Strange how the staffing cycles go up and down through the years. All about timing.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I read this post yesterday, and was going to comment, but didn't have time. I came back today, and read @Witmo's post. Serendipity.

What I was going to write was how, during one of my summers while attending the Colorado School for Wayward Boys, I was sent for 3 weeks to RAF Upper Heyford. It would have been the summer of 1989. For me, this summer was amazing. It was the first time out of the US for me, not including a family trip to Canada. I and five other of my classmates tearing up England as 19 and 20 year olds. Taking the train to London, chatting up "birds" in the pub, the list goes on.

Ostensibly, the trip was called "Operation Air Force" and the idea was that cadets would fan out to various bases all over the world and would spend three weeks seeing what the "real Air Force" was like. We'd spend a few days shadowing junior officers in different career fields so we got an idea of maybe what we wanted to do after graduation. A few days with the Security Forces, a couple more in Maintenance, then a couple in Intel. A few days shadowing a Personnel officer (I think we all played hookey for that tour). It was all very interesting, and it gave us a bit of an appreciation for other jobs, but it was all pretty much lost on us, because we were almost all PQ (pilot qualified) and we just wanted to hang out in Ops with the crews.

At night, after 6 hours of learning the intricacies of how to change a F-111 tire (basically, standing over three Enlisted Crew Chiefs, watching them change a tire). We would sit outside our BOQ rooms, drink beer and watch 30-foot blue flames shoot out of the back of the F-111s as they launched at dusk for night training sorties. We'd share our hopes and aspirations that in a few years, that might be us. We were young, wide-eyed, and motivated and all we wanted to do was "fly, fight, and win."

Finally, towards the end of the three weeks, in the most obvious case of "saving the best for last," we headed to Ops. That's why we were there. And those days spent in Ops were exactly what these young pilots-to-be needed. Learning what the day-to-day of an AF pilot was like. Okay... so the curtain was pulled back a bit and we saw that it wasn't all flying around, hair on fire... it was maybe long days in the vault, scheduling duties, paperwork, etc. But that didn't deter us, because that was all the price of admission. At the end of the week, we could cash in all our chits for our E-ticket ride in an F-111. We did egress training with the life support folks, got fitted for a helmet and mask, briefed and stepped to our jet. All I remember that this thing was massive. I was lucky enough, the summer prior to get an F-16 ride out at Luke AFB, and I just remember how much smaller the -16 was to this. The crew chief helped strap me in, and off we went. The flight was a blur, and I wish I had more vivid memories of it. I know we did a low-level through Scotland and the scenery was just fantastic, and I was able to keep from filling my sick-sack until we went into the break turn back at Upper Heyford.

But, from that ride, a F-111 fan was born. That's all I wanted to fly from that point on. I wanted to go to flight school, earn my wings, and get an F-111. That was my singular goal. Mother Air Force had other plans, though. The 90s were a rough time for pilots in the Air Force, with a huge surplus of pilots, and not nearly enough cockpits to put them in. The AF started to "bank" pilots... letting them finish flight training, but sending them to a desk job for 3-4 years to wait out this pilot "bubble" we had before getting back into an airplane. A full 2/3 of my UPT class was "banked." I was one of the lucky ones who did well enough to get an airplane straight out of training, but it wasn't the -111 I had been dreaming of. In fact, our class had exactly zero fighter cockpits. The number one graduate would usually have his pick of assignment... F-15C, F-16, A-10, whatever... our number one graduate took a C-141. That's what a year of hard work, top grades and excellent airmanship got you in late 1992. C'est la vie. That's all in the past, and I'm happy of my lot in life. But every once in a while, I'll see a picture or video of an F-111, or one mounted on a stick like they have at the Santa Fe airport, and think "if only..."
Click to expand...

I’ve read a bunch of combat pilot autobiographies. A common thread with getting your pick out of flight school was just plain luck. I remember reading in Admiral Gillcrist’s book, he got wind that his class selection would have no fighters. He made up a story and took emergency leave and got bumped to the next class. That class had like three fighter slots. I wanna say that he still didn’t have the grades for a fighter but convinced a guy to switch his fighter for his patrol slot. :eek: I guess back in the day there was a lot of luck but also a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes.

Good friend of mine in high school went to the Naval Academy. He was dead set on F-18s. Well, he was like number 5 out of 15 and the class only had a couple jet slots. Ended up in SH-60s. Don’t think he ever recovered from that.
 
Anybody who thinks they got what their military lot in life was, as a sole result of their merit, is out to effing lunch. Timing and luck, spelled "Needs of the service" is the only objective causal criteria. Merit and effort are a given within a subset. Performance failures are usually documented ad nauseam. It's timing and luck. Lottery winners just have never been that good about acknowledging their good timing. Nothing new under the sun.

This isn't unique to the early 90s. The DoD has been this cyclic, since WWII ended. Korea, same thing, Vietnam ditto. The banked pilots of the 90s on the usaf side landed on their feet, judging by those who I had the opportunity to interact with as a junior officer in the mid 2000s. One sent to do his masters as a young captain, to civilian college. Well, captain money in a campus of broke 21 year olds and hot women looking for a provider. Married rich, and moved to the Reserves, where he did it just to stay engaged. Would fly in on his personal Beech premier; I know because I was the travel pay guy in the squadron and would QC/process his travel vouchers lol.

The other banked guy I know is a one star right now in AFRC (bomber command, banked pilot from C-130s, so even managed to escape the mobility command) and managed to homestead to his heart content, again AFRC. A lot of the discussion about Active Duty stories miss that the ARC (Guard/Reserve) absorbed a lot of these RIFs. We went through a similar thing in the early 2010s, we absorbed a ton of AD folks into our ranks. They managed to salvage their careers. Many were able to escape their ADSC as a consequence of RIF, which gave them an in onto airline hiring waves (good timing) and still get promoted and get retirements in the Reserves, many even the active duty retirements they thought they had been shorted by being RIFed.

All that to say, it's always been about timing and luck. It's also a one-sided contract. There's a reason they call (well, I call it) it indentured servitude. This shouldn't be news to those who volunteered to sign on the dotted line for a shot at a flight slot. It's not selective service army/usmc 11B/03 conscription we're talking about here.

My dream was Vipers, ran out of money and time (mid 00s, BRAC-05, TAMI-21, Bush economy lost decade crap, yipeee for me). Took whatever I could just to get the clock started. Knew it, wasn't happy, but since when is Service about my happiness? So, did my job, salvaged what I could, pivoted within the bounds of the regulations, begged borrowed and stole what I needed to get whatever consolation prize would keep me engaged, never looked back. Did consider quitting at one point, but managed to find a happy medium before my vocational disappointments got to me.

I still consider myself lucky to have had this career, given the medical luck involved in it. Timing and luck indeed, there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I'll have my retirement check to cuddle with at night whenever I feel weepy about it :rofl:.
 
Oh yeah, luck it is. . .Times change. Then back again, nothing new under the sun . . .a close family member just attempted to retire, and was denied - former enlisted, now commissioned, flying helos. USMC. Skipped filling the squares for O5, looking to roll out and forego the last two years of a bonus - "Nope, you gotta stick around two more years."

I do remember USAF days of shoving pilots out the door - and the Reserves and Guard flying more than 50% of USAF hours. I guess that reliance made $$$ sense, but after multiple activations my Reserve unit started loosing a lot of guys, Officers and Enlisted (C130 unit).
 
hindsight2020 said:
Anybody who thinks they got what their military lot in life was, as a sole result of their merit, is out to effing lunch. Timing and luck, spelled "Needs of the service" is the only objective causal criteria. Merit and effort are a given within a subset. Performance failures are usually documented ad nauseam. It's timing and luck. Lottery winners just have never been that good about acknowledging their good timing. Nothing new under the sun.

This isn't unique to the early 90s. The DoD has been this cyclic, since WWII ended. Korea, same thing, Vietnam ditto. The banked pilots of the 90s on the usaf side landed on their feet, judging by those who I had the opportunity to interact with as a junior officer in the mid 2000s. One sent to do his masters as a young captain, to civilian college. Well, captain money in a campus of broke 21 year olds and hot women looking for a provider. Married rich, and moved to the Reserves, where he did it just to stay engaged. Would fly in on his personal Beech premier; I know because I was the travel pay guy in the squadron and would QC/process his travel vouchers lol.

The other banked guy I know is a one star right now in AFRC (bomber command, banked pilot from C-130s, so even managed to escape the mobility command) and managed to homestead to his heart content, again AFRC. A lot of the discussion about Active Duty stories miss that the ARC (Guard/Reserve) absorbed a lot of these RIFs. We went through a similar thing in the early 2010s, we absorbed a ton of AD folks into our ranks. They managed to salvage their careers. Many were able to escape their ADSC as a consequence of RIF, which gave them an in onto airline hiring waves (good timing) and still get promoted and get retirements in the Reserves, many even the active duty retirements they thought they had been shorted by being RIFed.

All that to say, it's always been about timing and luck. It's also a one-sided contract. There's a reason they call (well, I call it) it indentured servitude. This shouldn't be news to those who volunteered to sign on the dotted line for a shot at a flight slot. It's not selective service army/usmc 11B/03 conscription we're talking about here.

My dream was Vipers, ran out of money and time (mid 00s, BRAC-05, TAMI-21, Bush economy lost decade crap, yipeee for me). Took whatever I could just to get the clock started. Knew it, wasn't happy, but since when is Service about my happiness? So, did my job, salvaged what I could, pivoted within the bounds of the regulations, begged borrowed and stole what I needed to get whatever consolation prize would keep me engaged, never looked back. Did consider quitting at one point, but managed to find a happy medium before my vocational disappointments got to me.

I still consider myself lucky to have had this career, given the medical luck involved in it. Timing and luck indeed, there's no point in crying over spilt milk. I'll have my retirement check to cuddle with at night whenever I feel weepy about it :rofl:.
Click to expand...

Can’t over emphasize the last paragraph enough. Plenty of pilot prospects failed entrance exams. I worked with two ATC Lts who were applying for WSO (eyesight) and failed the written. Plenty failed flight physicals that eliminated people even before the written. Plenty of student pilots that washed out and never got to fulfill the dream. Worked with a Capt in ATC that washed out during T-45 phase in the Navy. That had to have sucked to get that far and get shown the door.

So yeah, I always feel fortunate that I navigated all the hurtles to the cockpit. Aviation, life for that matter, is a mine field. Good judgement, hard work combined with a lot of luck. Like Mover says, “make them tell you no.”
 
Last edited:
Groundpounder said:
The Operations Room is a great YouTube channel. He did a video on El Dorado Canyon.

Click to expand...

I would’ve phrased the Karma 52 crash differently. It’s a strong belief that they were locked on and a SAM hit them but no one really knows what happened. Bit of controversy with awards as well. Some thought DFCs were in order maybe even a Silver Star but USAFE ultimately decided on Air Medals.

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com...dorado-canyon-libya-under-air-attack-in-1986/
 
I think it is worth saying, the F-111 is probably one of the coolest jets we ever had in the inventory. I'd donate a nut to get an hour in that thing. For some reason, the FB always piqued my fancy. Standing SAC alert, in the scarves, probably playing pool and eating fancy AF meals when not launching into NE winters. I bet they had a hot tub and strippers in that thing when it got airborne.
 
The funny part about The F111 involvement was they were not needed. The Navy had the assets on station to do the entire mission. The AirForce insisted on being involved for political reasons and the ridiculous mission described in this thread was the result.
 
35 AoA said:
…I bet they had a hot tub and strippers in that thing when it got airborne.
Click to expand...
Of course they did; part of what swayed me to join big blue.

But that stuff was code word need to know back in the day.
 
Last edited:
Indirectly I know two different people who worked on supporting F-111's when they were at Plattsburgh. Given the area, I'm betting the hot tubs and dancers were in Montreal.

Always loved that airplane. At the time, I thought the appropriate thing to do was to overfly France at about 500' AGL and apologize later. Other than swearing about it and sending us a bill for broken windows after, what could they have done?
 
What are the little canard looking devices just forward of the wings? Do those just pop up to allow room for the wings to sweep forward?
 
Velocity173 said:
What are the little canard looking devices just forward of the wings? Do those just pop up to allow room for the wings to sweep forward?
Click to expand...
They're called wing gloves and they pop up to allow the wings to sweep forward exactly as you said.
wing glove.jpg
 
Velocity173 said:
Aviation, life for that matter, is a mine field. Good judgement, hard work combined with a lot of luck. Like Mover says, “make them tell you no.”
Click to expand...
Some of us (ahem) were guilty of conscripting helpers in medical offices to bend that damned physical just enough to clear the bar, or I should say 20/20 line. Weight and height were also obstacles to be met. Determination, lucky timing and bit of prayer always helped. One of my favorite stories is about Chief Warrant Michael Novosel, for whom the Army Aviation Center is about to be renamed: "After fast-talking his way into the aviation cadet program (he was too short to pass the physical)..." https://homeofheroes.com/heroes-stories/vietnam-war/mike-novosel/
 
hindsight2020 said:
Anybody who thinks they got what their military lot in life was, as a sole result of their merit, is out to effing lunch. Timing and luck, spelled "Needs of the service" is the only objective causal criteria. Merit and effort are a given within a subset. Performance failures are usually documented ad nauseam. It's timing and luck. Lottery winners just have never been that good about acknowledging their good timing. Nothing new under the sun. This isn't unique to the early 90s. The DoD has been this cyclic, since WWII ended. Korea, same thing, Vietnam ditto.
Click to expand...
Eloquent! You and Velocity have nailed it, just in case there are neophytes, fledglings, and newbies reading this thread. Good luck to all.
 
Piperonca said:
Some of us (ahem) were guilty of conscripting helpers in medical offices to bend that damned physical just enough to clear the bar, or I should say 20/20 line. Weight and height were also obstacles to be met. Determination, lucky timing and bit of prayer always helped. One of my favorite stories is about Chief Warrant Michael Novosel, for whom the Army Aviation Center is about to be renamed: "After fast-talking his way into the aviation cadet program (he was too short to pass the physical)..." https://homeofheroes.com/heroes-stories/vietnam-war/mike-novosel/
Click to expand...

Yep, Bob Hoover was one who came across the right doc who signed off his physical despite less than stellar eyesight. I was reading another pilot autobiography last year where the pilot in question memorized the eye chart. He later went on to fly F-8s in Vietnam and got a MIG kill. Who says good eyesight is important in being a pilot? ;) Fortunately for me, my vision was perfect when I got picked up (1999). Of course a couple years later the whole 20/20 uncorrected thing was removed. Opened the gates for a lot of people who had dreams of flying Army helos.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep, Bob Hoover was one who came across the right doc who signed off his physical despite less than stellar eyesight. I was reading another pilot autobiography last year where the pilot in question memorized the eye chart. He later went on to fly F-8s in Vietnam and got a MIG kill. Who says good eyesight is important in being a pilot? ;) Fortunately for me, my vision was perfect when I got picked up (1999). Of course a couple years later the whole 20/20 uncorrected thing was removed. Opened the gates for a lot of people who had dreams of flying Army helos.
Click to expand...
Good story about Bob Hoover, "The greatest stick and rudder man who ever lived." (General Jimmy Doolittle)

Eyes can be weird: one of mine was 20/25 with astigmatism. After some negotiation with a medic, I went to Ft. Wolters anyway. That was the first of a two part, eight month flight school back then. At the graduation of the Wolters phase, we were all given another Class I physical. Rule was once in, you were good, so I didn't worry but got a big surprise at the new physical exam. Very strangely, in a matter of months, both my eyes had gone to 20/15 and they stayed there or 20/20 for at least the next decade. I think a whole lot of focusing at distance helped.
 
Last edited:
Jeff767 said:
The funny part about The F111 involvement was they were not needed. The Navy had the assets on station to do the entire mission. The AirForce insisted on being involved for political reasons and the ridiculous mission described in this thread was the result.
Click to expand...

Story of our entire service history (at least the flying part). I remember flying for a month over Iraq completely unarmed (unless you want to count my service 9mm), watching ISIS kill hundreds of civilians via ATFLIR. Guess what? We got bombs as soon as AF tactical units arrived in theater. Heavy politics. Though that chapter left a particularly disgusting taste in my mouth.
 
Piperonca said:
Some of us (ahem) were guilty of conscripting helpers in medical offices to bend that damned physical just enough to clear the bar, or I should say 20/20 line. Weight and height were also obstacles to be met. Determination, lucky timing and bit of prayer always helped. One of my favorite stories is about Chief Warrant Michael Novosel, for whom the Army Aviation Center is about to be renamed: "After fast-talking his way into the aviation cadet program (he was too short to pass the physical)..." https://homeofheroes.com/heroes-stories/vietnam-war/mike-novosel/
Click to expand...
LOL! My Reserve unit had flight physicals grouped by birth month - a big gaggle of us on the same daym at a USAF hospital on the joint use base - we hand carried our records from station to station; our name tags were Velcro. . .I'd average three hearing tests a day on those visits. . .
 
Piperonca said:
Good story about Bob Hoover, "The greatest stick and rudder man who ever lived." (General Jimmy Doolittle)

Eyes can be weird: one of mine was 20/25 with astigmatism. After some negotiation with a medic, I went to Ft. Wolters anyway. That was the first of a two part, eight month flight school back then. At the graduation of the Wolters phase, we were all given another Class I physical. Rule was once in, you were good, so I didn't worry but got a big surprise at the new physical exam. Very strangely, in a matter of months, both my eyes had gone to 20/15 and they stayed there or 20/20 for at least the next decade. I think a whole lot of focusing at distance helped.
Click to expand...

We were given a surprise class IA right before starting WOCS. Heard it was to weed of the ones that might have gotten in with a pencil whipped physical. It was pretty thorough and we dropped a couple candidates after that.
 
It was different for those of us in the commissioned classes in the late 60s. More laissez-faire. Different times, they were. I think some should have been weeded out on mental alone. There was a captain in my unit that did some strange stuff. Got kicked out, over to another avn unit. Next I saw him was in the PX at Rucker wearing E5 insignia. Congenital liar.
 
nauga said:
Don't know about that but it did have a goat turd.

Nauga,
dropping a marker
Click to expand...
In the turn and bank? ;)

I’ve been around them. I never worked on the TF-30 and never saw the cockpit. I’d just heard from more than one person that it had ash trays. It was sexy watching it land. Looked like a smooth suspension system.
 
The Aardvark was my first aircraft program after spending a couple of years on Helicopters. Was an engineer on the TF30’s for 5 years. The first version (TF30-P-3) met its performance requirements but was extremely squirrelly lighting the augmenter. That and an Airframe that had a crappy inlet, was grossly overweight and a less than perfect Radar/Avionics made for a somewhat undesirable combination.

My last job there was nursing the last version (TF30-P-100) thru qualification. The result was the original thrust to wight design level. Also the TFR was sorted, the engine augmenter was more reliable (Definitely not perfect ever), the Inlet was fixed and it was pretty damn fine plane.

A fine example of the old saying of “Never fly the A model of anything” not to mention the folly of “Common aircraft” for the USAF and USN.

(The less said about the USN F-111B, the better)

Cheers
 
Last edited:
X3 Skier said:
The Aardvark was my first aircraft program after spending a couple of years on Helicopters. Was an engineer on the TF30’s for 5 years. The first version (TF30-P-3) met its performance requirements but was extremely squirrelly lighting the augmenter. That and an Airframe that had a crappy inlet, was grossly overweight and less than perfect Radar/Avionics made for a somewhat undesirable combination.

My last job there was nursing the last version (TF30-P-100) thru qualification. The result was the original thrust to wight design level. Also the TFR was sorted, the engine augmenter was more reliable (Definitely not perfect ever), the Inlet was fixed and it was pretty damn fine plane.

A fine example of the old saying of “Never fly the A model of anything” not to mention the folly of “Common aircraft” for the USAF and USN.

(The less said about the USN F-111B, the better)

Cheers
Click to expand...

“Senator, there isn’t enough power in all Christendom to make that airplane what we want!” ;)
 
T shirt worn by F14A pilots flying the TF30. “If it says Pratt and Whitney it better say Martin Baker.”
 
One Tomcat CO testifying when the TF-30 had so many problems and squadrons were left with lots of bare firewalls allegedly said "I wanted to grow up to be a fighter pilot or own a junkyard and now I'm doing both"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top