Operating Limitations for EAB can these be changed?

1600vw

1600vw

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Once these Operating limitation have been given can they be changed?

Is the operating limitation for a homebuilt the same as the POH in general avaition?

Do all Homebuilts get the same Operating Limitations or is it plane specific?

I ask this for the last two Homebuilts I have owned, these operating limitations looked like they where copied word for word. So because of owning two different planes built by two different people in different parts of the country, but had the same operationg limitatons I thought all Homebuilts had the same Operating limitations.

But after some conversations I have had with other members whom believe I am all wet, I thought I would ask this question.

Fly Smart
 
Operating limitations tend to be generic, but the wording / limitations have changed over time. How old are yours?

You can usually go to the local FSDO and get updated to the current version which is less restrictive with respect to flying over congested areas after the initial test flying.

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp
 
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1600vw said:
Once these Operating limitation have been given can they be changed?
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Good -- we're ready to learn.

Yes, they can. You need to talk with your FSDO Airworthiness people and show that you've completed sufficient flight time to demonstrate the aircraft's reliability.

Is the operating limitation for a homebuilt the same as the POH in general avaition?
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The Operating Limitations for an E-AB/LSA aircraft are equivalent to Section 2 Limitations in a certified aircraft's POH, but they are not identical.

Do all Homebuilts get the same Operating Limitations or is it plane specific?
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There is a basic generic operating limitation set which is normally applied to amateur built aircraft. That set may be modified based on the specific characteristics of that aircraft, including whether or not it uses a certified engine.

I ask this for the last two Homebuilts I have owned, these operating limitations looked like they where copied word for word. So because of owning two different planes built by two different people in different parts of the country, but had the same operationg limitatons I thought all Homebuilts had the same Operating limitations.
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They don't. This is all explained in FAA Order 8130.2G.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8130.2G .pdf
See section 4104 on page 4-75 for details on E-AB aircraft, and section 4084 on page 4-55 for details on E-LSA aircraft -- not sure which type of airworthiness certificate your aircraft has.

However, it would be unusual for an E-AB/LSA aircraft to be issued original operating limitations with that "Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways" limitation without provision for expanding the operating area after Phase I/II flight testing is completed. As the note to that limitation says, "This limitation is applicable for phase I and II and should be issued in accordance with paragraph 4075b(1) and (2) of this order" for E-LSA (similar language in the E-AB section). So, you might want to read further in your operating limitations and consult the Airworthiness folks at your local FSDO to see if that provision is no longer applicable. Also, the folks in your local EAA chapter may be able to help you interpret the operating limitations you have and provide advice on expanding them.

But after some conversations I have had with other members whom believe I am all wet, I thought I would ask this question.
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Glad to hear it, and I hope this helps.
 
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Ron Levy said:
However, it would be unusual for an E-AB/LSA aircraft to be issued original operating limitations with that "Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways" limitation without provision for expanding the operating area after Phase I/II flight testing is completed. As the note to that limitation says, "This limitation is applicable for phase I and II and should be issued in accordance with paragraph 4075b(1) and (2) of this order" for E-LSA (similar language in the E-AB section).
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That's the current version. Older versions were different.

On mine (from 1998) it says
PHASE II Operating Limitations:
The following limitations apply after completion of Flight Test:
...
3. Except for takeoffs and landings, no person may operate this aircraft over densely populated areas or in congested airways.
...
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which are different from the phase I rules which do not include the takeoff and landing exceptions.
 
Great info here guys. My OP Limitations are from 2004. To date I have flown her 96 hrs. She has a hummel engine. If this info helps any.

Thanks again and I am always, I mean always, wanting to learn as much as I can.

Fly Smart
 
My op limitations are really old and unrestrictive. I like them that way.
 
She had her time flown off on her way back in 2004 at N81 Hammonton Municipal Airport in New Jersey and Woodpine Municipal Airport 1N4.
 
1600vw said:
She had her time flown off on her way back in 2004 at N81 Hammonton Municipal Airport in New Jersey and Woodpine Municipal Airport 1N4.
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Then the limitations should have changed. Get some help reading them in their entirety, and see if the FSDO won't make modifications.
 
I wondered why my plane was N numbered but I had to fly it like an Ultralight. I thought it had to do with being a Homebuilt.
So I need to take my logbook and my Operating limitations into the fsdo and tell them I want the restrictions for congested areas removed. Would that be correct?
 
1600vw said:
I wondered why my plane was N numbered but I had to fly it like an Ultralight. I thought it had to do with being a Homebuilt.
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I'm not sure what you mean by having to "fly it like an Ultralight." Ultralights don't require a pilot certificate, and they have many other restrictions which LSA's do not -- even E-LSA's. See Part 103, Subpart B, for details. But if it has an N-number, it is not an Ultralight under those regulations.
So I need to take my logbook and my Operating limitations into the fsdo and tell them I want the restrictions for congested areas removed. Would that be correct?
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More or less. The logbooks you have to take are the engine, airframe, and prop logs for your aircraft, and you have to call ahead and make an appointment to visit one of the Airworthiness Inspectors. You'll probably want to discuss this with him/her when you make that appointment, and may be asked to send copies of the logs and your current operating limitations to the FSDO ahead of time so s/he can study them and be better able to give you proper assistance when you show up for your appointment.
 
jesse said:
My op limitations are really old and unrestrictive. I like them that way.
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yep there are advantages and disadvantages. i had the operating limitations on the cherokee updated to 'modern' standards because the ones as issued simply said "Day VFR only". I wanted the standard experimental limitations which would allow night or IFR flying if equipped per 91.blahblahblah.

many sailplanes with experimental racing & exhibition certs issued before 1992ish basically read like an amatuer built and don't require annual program letters, limited flight areas, etc. Those operating limitations are very valuable.
 
tonycondon said:
yep there are advantages and disadvantages. i had the operating limitations on the cherokee updated to 'modern' standards because the ones as issued simply said "Day VFR only". I wanted the standard experimental limitations which would allow night or IFR flying if equipped per 91.blahblahblah.

many sailplanes with experimental racing & exhibition certs issued before 1992ish basically read like an amatuer built and don't require annual program letters, limited flight areas, etc. Those operating limitations are very valuable.
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I'll to take another look at mine. I know it permits night if equipped. Can't remember about IFR. I don't remember there being much of anything restrictive in it.
 
If I remember right 48ml allows night but not IFR. Also you can't tow gliders or carry skydivers
 
http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/issues/operating_limitations.asp

Call the FSDO or MIDO and tell them you'll be mailing (or by fax if they'll allow it) them a letter requesting to update your operating limitations, along with copies (DO NOT mail your originals – just in case they get lost in the mail) of your current airworthiness certificate, aircraft registration and operating limitations. Let them know you'll bring in the original documents for exchange when the new ones are ready - you can't fly your aircraft without the original documents in the aircraft so hang onto them as long as you can. This is a paperwork issue that should only take them 30 minutes to complete. Don't let them refer you to a DAR for the paperwork conversion because a DAR does not have the authority to do this - only a FAA FSDO or MIDO Safety Inspector can do the paperwork. Note: a DAR can do the paperwork under a "re-certification" action, which means they have to inspect your aircraft and charge you for their services - while the FSDO or MIDO Inspector does not have to do an inspection and the cost is more reasonable - Free.
FAA Order 8130.2F, Chapter 2, Section 2, paragraph 27b(1)(d) and 27b(6) describe the FAA process for updating your operating limitations. Again, the FAA is not required to re-inspect your aircraft for this type of administrative procedure – per 27b(6).
Obtain the FAA Form 8130-6, "Application for Airworthiness Certificate" and along with a copy of AC 21-12, "Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate, FAA Form 8230-6" from your local FSDO office.
This is what the letter to the FSDO or MIDO should look like:
Name and address of your local FSDO or MIDO
Dear Sirs,
Attached is a completed FAA Form 8130-6, Application for Airworthiness Certificate.
In accordance with FAA Order 8130.2F paragraph 27b(1)(d) and 26b(6), this application is being submitted to amend my current experimental operating limitations to match those published in FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 153 (dated 11/5/04), including the changes published in Change 1 to FAA Order 8130.2F (dated 1/4/05).
My aircraft, N_____, currently has ___ hours on it and I am operating in Phase II.
I've enclosed a copy of the current airworthiness certificate, aircraft registration and operating limitations for my aircraft, N_______, for your reference use.
Sincerely,
your name, address, and phone number.
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Ron Levy said:
I'm not sure what you mean by having to "fly it like an Ultralight." Ultralights don't require a pilot certificate, and they have many other restrictions which LSA's do not -- even E-LSA's. See Part 103, Subpart B, for details. But if it has an N-number, it is not an Ultralight under those regulations.


My OP says no flying over congetsed areas even for take off and landings.

From what I have learned ultralights have this same restrictions. So if this is not flying like an ultralight what is. Sure ultralights don't need a certificate because you are flying " over non congested areas including take offs and landings"

So here I am certificated and I must fly " Over non congetsed areas" I might as well burn my certificate for I am flying " Like an Ultralight"

Sure ultralights are under 254 bla bla bla....
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