Operating costs

[flyingcheesehead]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to find operating costs for the following types:

newer (<10 yrs old) Archer
Arrow
C172
Tiger
DA40

Maintenance is the biggest question mark. My club is replacing an old (1976) Archer, so I already know costs for Hangar and such. I'll be getting quotes for insurance.

I need to know average fuel burn, maintenance costs, that sort of thing.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Len Lanetti]

Kent,

Rule of thumb fuel use in cruise 150-160 hp figure 8-9 gph and 10-11 gph for 180-200hp.

Len

 

[Richard]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to find operating costs for the following types:

newer (<10 yrs old) Archer
Arrow
C172
Tiger
DA40

Maintenance is the biggest question mark. My club is replacing an old (1976) Archer, so I already know costs for Hangar and such. I'll be getting quotes for insurance.

I need to know average fuel burn, maintenance costs, that sort of thing.

Thanks in advance for any help!

I guess I don't understand the question. You say you're looking for operating costs but you also imply you desire information on mx.

While Lenny provides a good rule of thumb for fuel burn that and mx will be affected by if this is for the rental/training fleet. I know that is obvious but I'm looking for some clarification on how the birds are to be used.

EDIT: The club I belong to has 14 a/c on the line. Among other types they have a couple 172s (N through SP), 182, a couple Arrows, a Lance, and some Cherokees. Avg mx would be hard to pin down 'cause in one year there were 3 engine replacements, a whole new panel caused by electrical short and the usual stuff like rekeying door locks, nose gear repair, etc. Other than the engine replacements that was a pretty typical year. So, I guess it's not just type of use but also size of the fleet to consider in figuring an avg mx cost.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

While Lenny provides a good rule of thumb for fuel burn that and mx will be affected by if this is for the rental/training fleet. I know that is obvious but I'm looking for some clarification on how the birds are to be used.

Good point.

We are a 30-member, 3-airplane club. We have a C182 and two Archers, one of which will probably be sold if we get a newer/different plane. We do not allow student pilots in the club until they have soloed and have a minimum of 25 hours, so they're not learning how to land in our birds.

The airplanes fly roughly 300 hours per year, and our engines generally make TBO. In fact, the C182 is over TBO but still running strong. We're going to keep that engine for about another year unless oil analysis and compression checks indicate a problem before then.

Typical use for our aircraft are short $100-burger type runs and city tours, instrument training flights, and occasional longer trips (though most of the long trips of >300nm or so are made in the 182).

Thanks,

 

[Anthony]

A suprisingly good rule of thumb is three times the hourly cost of fuel for the airplane you are considering. For instance, if the plane burns 10 GPH, and gas cost $3.00 per gallon, the hourly operating cost "should" be around $90 per hour. And that is pretty darn close for my Tiger.

 

[Iceman]

I'm going to put my .02 in even though I have not owned any of the above aircraft.

The club I used to be in had an arrow on the flight line. It apeared to me that it needed a lot more repairs then the other aircraft and I'm guessing with a CS prop and RG it would cost more for mx.

How much is your club looking to spend? To get a good DA40 you can spend between 170-190k and for a good condition 172 or archer (<10 years) it would probably cost 130-150k. IMO it is worth another 20-30k to have a plane already set up with a good hsi, ap, and dual 430, 530/430 setup. But these goodies are more to maintain as well. I remember seeing a DH 2002 Archer III a little while ago for around 130ish and thought it would be a good deal for a club.

If it was my choice I would pick the DA40. There is one not too far away to rent for ~$75 wet but you also have to pay a monthly fee and a startup fee. But it might give you a good idea on the hourly operation cost.

Chris

 

[poadeleted20]

You can probably figure the maintenance costs on the newer (but not brand new) Archer to be only marginally less than the existing one unless you're getting a plane that is still in warranty. The maintenance costs and fuel burns on a Tiger or 180 HP C-172 will be virtually identical to those on the Archer, and the only difference from that for a a 160HP C-172 will be maybe 15-20% lower fuel burn.

For an Arrow, take your Archer numbers and add around $3/hour for prop and gear maintenance, and up your fuel burns by 10%. It's the retractable gear insurance that really ups the ante on the Arrow.

 

[drhunt]

Annual direct costs for my 1999 Archer over the past 6 years have run about $10K, with reserves I'd guess closer to $14K. Annuals have run $2K-3K, generally closer to $2400/yr. I fly 130-150 hrs/yr and get things fixed when they need it. Yr 5 was the most expensive annual as most pumps (fuel, vacuum, backup vacuum) have a 5-year life and were replaced, otherwise it has been normal items (tires, battery, hoses, mag seals, etc). Cruise 125-130kts between 6500-8500 @ 9-10 gph.

3x fuel burn gets you pretty close to the total costs w/reserves.

(BTW, what's a "DH" 2002 Archer III?)

 

[ScottM]

Here was my estimate for my 1980 Warrior which is what I budget. I use the higher end of the estimated values for my numbers. Since I am also near Madison the numbers may be very close to what you see.

Fuel 9gal/hr @ $4/gal
Oil Change $75/50hrs
Insurance $1100/year
Engine replacement $25000/1000 hrs
Maintenance $1000/100hr
Annual $5000/year

I plan to fly at least a 100 hours/yr. That makes my costs.

Fuel $3600/year
Oil $150/year
Insurance $1100/year
Engine replacement $2500/year
Maintenance $1000/year
Annual $1500/year

Total = $9850/year or about $98.5/hr

These were my initial values when I started to budget for the plane. So far the actuals I have seen are:
Insurance $1033/year
Fuel and maintence $1973/5 months (includes a vacuum pump failure)
Hours 41/5 months

Annual cost then $1033
((1973)*12)/5=4735 Maintence (worst case)

= 5768/year
Estimate rate of flying (41*12)/5 = 98.5hours
Or about $48/hour but does not include my annual yet so I expect that number to increase.

A lot of my maintainence cost were included in a vacum pump failure, a replacemetn side window and the aquisition of tools and other items a new owner needs. Since you have a club already I would expect that some of those items would not need to be purchased. There also is inlcuded a $400/year GPS subscription charge that I call maintenance.

Hope some of my guestimating inspires you.


Scott

 

[flyingcheesehead]

David and Scott,

Thanks for your real-world numbers. It should be fun to compare those with ours, plus provide a few more data points.

You can probably figure the maintenance costs on the newer (but not brand new) Archer to be only marginally less than the existing one unless you're getting a plane that is still in warranty. The maintenance costs and fuel burns on a Tiger or 180 HP C-172 will be virtually identical to those on the Archer, and the only difference from that for a a 160HP C-172 will be maybe 15-20% lower fuel burn.

For an Arrow, take your Archer numbers and add around $3/hour for prop and gear maintenance, and up your fuel burns by 10%. It's the retractable gear insurance that really ups the ante on the Arrow.

Ron,

Excellent advice as usual. That sounds a lot easier to calculate than averaging a bunch of random people's planes as well. Thanks!

The club I used to be in had an arrow on the flight line. It apeared to me that it needed a lot more repairs then the other aircraft and I'm guessing with a CS prop and RG it would cost more for mx.

Interesting. There is another club here that has an Arrow II, but they don't seem to have too many problems with it.

How much is your club looking to spend? To get a good DA40 you can spend between 170-190k and for a good condition 172 or archer (<10 years) it would probably cost 130-150k. IMO it is worth another 20-30k to have a plane already set up with a good hsi, ap, and dual 430, 530/430 setup. But these goodies are more to maintain as well. I remember seeing a DH 2002 Archer III a little while ago for around 130ish and thought it would be a good deal for a club.

We're looking at anything from an old Arrow III with good radios ($90k range) up to, potentially, a brand new $260k DA40. How much we spend is probably going to be a secondary argument to what we buy with it. We do want a good autopilot and at least a 430 on anything we get.

If it was my choice I would pick the DA40. There is one not too far away to rent for ~$75 wet but you also have to pay a monthly fee and a startup fee. But it might give you a good idea on the hourly operation cost.

Me too! And, several other board members and club members as well. I think we've got at least 7 of the 30 solidly on board. I think quite a few others will hop on board as well. I just have to justify it to the rest of the club! We also need to decide if we want extra $$ added to the dues to cover such a new plane, whether to add on a few more members, or whether to keep the planes we have, add the new one, and add 10 more members. These numbers are what will help us make an educated decision, and they were lacking in the past.

 

[Iceman]

(BTW, what's a "DH" 2002 Archer III?)

I was refering to a plane on ebay that had damage history and a higher time engine. However, it still had two 430's and looked to be in good condition.

Me too! And, several other board members and club members as well. I think we've got at least 7 of the 30 solidly on board. I think quite a few others will hop on board as well. I just have to justify it to the rest of the club! We also need to decide if we want extra $$ added to the dues to cover such a new plane, whether to add on a few more members, or whether to keep the planes we have, add the new one, and add 10 more members. These numbers are what will help us make an educated decision, and they were lacking in the past.

I really like the diamond planes and I think the insurance for your club will be a lot cheaper than something like a cirrus. The hard question is to buy new or used. We did a lot of looking at new planes two years ago. Cirrus, Lancair, Mooney, etc... In the end we decided that a three year old plane was the way to go because of the hard depreciation new planes go through the first few years. But that also means no glass panel (not sure if this is good or bad for club members or insurance). For your club it looks like there is a 100-110k difference between new and 3-4 years used. Good luck on your search.

Chris

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I really like the diamond planes and I think the insurance for your club will be a lot cheaper than something like a cirrus.

The Cirrus was (as I expected) eliminated from contention quite easily. The insurance company simply said they would not insure us in any Cirrus no matter what we paid 'em. Not a surprise at all.

A few of our members formed a new club last year and purchased an SR20. They started with 7 members and wanted to have 15 and a 182 as well but the insurance company wouldn't insure them with more than 7 either. They're thinking about getting an SR22 or a Columbia 350 now, but we'll see how that goes...

In the end we decided that a three year old plane was the way to go because of the hard depreciation new planes go through the first few years. But that also means no glass panel (not sure if this is good or bad for club members or insurance).

I actually had all but eliminated the glass panels from contention for the same reason, but we are still looking at them for the moment. Insurance co. wanted us to send all members either to the Diamond factory or to St. Louis for factory FITS training, which just isn't feasible. Still waiting to hear if they'll let us send one of our CFI's to become a factory-certified instructor (standard course first, then the instructor course for an additional $2500 ).

Now, if only &*()&^)*(^&(* Tiger Aircraft would post a price list online like everyone else does, I'd be in good shape.

 

[poadeleted20]

The Cirrus was (as I expected) eliminated from contention quite easily. The insurance company simply said they would not insure us in any Cirrus no matter what we paid 'em. Not a surprise at all. A few of our members formed a new club last year and purchased an SR20. They started with 7 members and wanted to have 15 and a 182 as well but the insurance company wouldn't insure them with more than 7 either.

I'd heard that the insurance companies were putting a limit on the number of pilots in a Cirrus ownership group (club or co-owners/partnership) due to bad experience with large clubs and Cirri, but this is the first I've heard of anyone running into this or a specific limit.

They're thinking about getting an SR22

I can't see how the insurance company would accept a large number of pilots on an SR22 but not an SR20.

Now, if only &*()&^)*(^&(* Tiger Aircraft would post a price list online like everyone else does, I'd be in good shape.

Figure about $270K for a G1000 Tiger.

 

[Dan Smith]

Kent,

Another source to look at... not sure how valid the numbers are, but may be useful for comparisons.

http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

Dan

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You can probably figure the maintenance costs on the newer (but not brand new) Archer to be only marginally less than the existing one unless you're getting a plane that is still in warranty. The maintenance costs and fuel burns on a Tiger or 180 HP C-172 will be virtually identical to those on the Archer, and the only difference from that for a a 160HP C-172 will be maybe 15-20% lower fuel burn.

For an Arrow, take your Archer numbers and add around $3/hour for prop and gear maintenance, and up your fuel burns by 10%. It's the retractable gear insurance that really ups the ante on the Arrow.

One of the larger clubs at BFI that I flew quite a bit out of, consistently charged about 40% more for an RG model of a given aircraft ie.: Skylane RG v. Straight Leg 182.

One sure didn't get 40% more knots out of the RGs in the air though...

 

[gismo]

One of the larger clubs at BFI that I flew quite a bit out of, consistently charged about 40% more for an RG model of a given aircraft ie.: Skylane RG v. Straight Leg 182.

One sure didn't get 40% more knots out of the RGs in the air though...

Yeah, but the thrill of raising that big round knob is priceless!

 

[BobS]

For an Arrow, take your Archer numbers and add around $3/hour for prop and gear maintenance, and up your fuel burns by 10%. It's the retractable gear insurance that really ups the ante on the Arrow.

I have to disagree on the Arrow numbers. I upgraded just over a year, and 250 hours ago, from a Warrior to an Arrow. My insurance the first year went from $1100 to $1300, but that was because of the higher hull value. This year my insurance went down and it is comparable to friends with Archers with the same hull value ($70,000).

My fuel costs are quite a bit lower in the Arrow than the Warrior. I generally flew the Warrior full throttle at 8.5 gph. I usually fly the Arrow throttled back and at 22" and 2400 RPM and burn 8.5, but at 135 kts instead of 105 kts. That gives me much better fuel economy. The annual costs about $300 more, and I had to have maintenance on the gear once at about $200, so the real maintenance cost is about $500 more on the Arrow, but the fuel savings made up for that. Bottom line, Arrow and Warrior cost about the same to operate.

 

[ScottM]

It's the retractable gear insurance that really ups the ante on the Arrow.

Conventional wisdom.

What I saw when I was buying my plane was for a PA28R-180 Arrow my insurance would be $1300/year. I ended up with a PA28-161 Warrior at $1000/year

 

[drhunt]

I was refering to a plane on ebay that had damage history and a higher time engine. However, it still had two 430's and looked to be in good condition.

Chris

Thanks for the acronym enrichment

DH

 

[poadeleted20]

You can probably figure the maintenance costs on the newer (but not brand new) Archer to be only marginally less than the existing one unless you're getting a plane that is still in warranty. The maintenance costs and fuel burns on a Tiger or 180 HP C-172 will be virtually identical to those on the Archer, and the only difference from that for a a 160HP C-172 will be maybe 15-20% lower fuel burn.

One of the larger clubs at BFI that I flew quite a bit out of, consistently charged about 40% more for an RG model of a given aircraft ie.: Skylane RG v. Straight Leg 182. One sure didn't get 40% more knots out of the RGs in the air though...

A bit more than the typical differential (usually about 30%), but there are a couple of factors at work. First, there is that insurance issue. Second, for a variety of reasons, complex trainers in flight school/club/FBO use generally fly fewer hours per calendar period than their fixed gear counterparts so the fixed costs are spread out over fewer hours, and that runs the total cost per hour up in a hurry.

I have to disagree on the Arrow numbers. I upgraded just over a year, and 250 hours ago, from a Warrior to an Arrow. My insurance the first year went from $1100 to $1300, but that was because of the higher hull value. This year my insurance went down and it is comparable to friends with Archers with the same hull value ($70,000).

What I saw when I was buying my plane was for a PA28R-180 Arrow my insurance would be $1300/year. I ended up with a PA28-161 Warrior at $1000/year

While that's not unusual for a personally-owned aircraft, especially when the owner has adequate retractable time, it is not typical of commercial use operations like flight schools, flying clubs, and FBO's. There you will see substantially higher hull rates unless you eat a huge deductible (about the cost of a gear-up landing).

My fuel costs are quite a bit lower in the Arrow than the Warrior. I generally flew the Warrior full throttle at 8.5 gph. I usually fly the Arrow throttled back and at 22" and 2400 RPM and burn 8.5, but at 135 kts instead of 105 kts. That gives me much better fuel economy.

Again, while an individual owner can choose to do this, renter pilots just don't -- they'll run at 75% power (or more) because they don't see their cost/hour changing with throttle setting (even though it does in the long run).

The annual costs about $300 more, and I had to have maintenance on the gear once at about $200, so the real maintenance cost is about $500 more on the Arrow, but the fuel savings made up for that. Bottom line, Arrow and Warrior cost about the same to operate.

For your specific case, but your conditions are totally unrealistic to expect for a club operation.

 

[ggroves]

40% seems a bit extreme, but not uncommon. Our flight school charges a 35% premium on a 172RG vs 172N.

I can also tell you that I pay approx. a 40% premium on insurance on a 182RG vs a straight leg. Maintenance hasn't been quite that much of a premium, thankfully.

Greg
182RG

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd heard that the insurance companies were putting a limit on the number of pilots in a Cirrus ownership group (club or co-owners/partnership) due to bad experience with large clubs and Cirri, but this is the first I've heard of anyone running into this or a specific limit.

I can't see how the insurance company would accept a large number of pilots on an SR22 but not an SR20.

The 7-member limit was only applicable for the first year, I believe. Knowing at least a few of them, though, the question of adding a plane probably included demo flights long before calls to the insurance company.

Figure about $270K for a G1000 Tiger.

That was my guess, but... The only price I can find online is the $239,500 for the base model. I'm trying to come up with prices for configurations that are as close as possible. No reply from anyone at Tiger Aircraft yet.

Another source to look at... not sure how valid the numbers are, but may be useful for comparisons.

http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

Dan,

Thanks! Didn't know such a site existed, that's VERY cool.

Now everybody go add your numbers to it.

 

[poadeleted20]

No reply from anyone at Tiger Aircraft yet.

Contact me directly off-line with some contact info for you and I guarantee a prompt response from TA.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Contact me directly off-line with some contact info for you and I guarantee a prompt response from TA.

Thanks Ron... They actually did get back to me this morning. I was kind of wondering if you had something to do with that!

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks Ron... They actually did get back to me this morning. I was kind of wondering if you had something to do with that!

Nope -- but I'm glad it worked out.