Open Airplane allows individual owners to rent their planes

Interesting. Does this mean that a 100 hour inspection be required if one did this?
 
LevelWing said:
Interesting. Does this mean that a 100 hour inspection be required if one did this?
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As I read 91.409(b), the 100 hour inspection is only needed to make the plane legal for "carrying any person ... for hire" or for "flight instruction for hire".

I think pilots can rent their planes to one other with annual inspections alone.

About a week before I was going to take my checkride, I got all worried that it would get goofed up because the plane I rent was last inspected about 95 hours earlier. The school told me that it wouldn't be a problem even if it rolled over 100 just before or during the checkride because the plane wouldn't be used to carry somebody for hire or, since I'm legally PIC during the ride, for flight instruction.
 
Yes, without instructors in the loop, a rental doesn't need a 100 hour.

The big issue always has been INSURANCE. As they reference on their website, a rental policy is about triple what you pay for personal use. They claim to have a deal with an underwriter that won't do this.
 
flyingron said:
Yes, without instructors in the loop, a rental doesn't need a 100 hour.
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In fact, the renter could bring his/her own instructor to the party without a 100-hour inspection being required. It's only if the party providing the aircraft is also providing the instruction/instructor.

The big issue always has been INSURANCE. As they reference on their website, a rental policy is about triple what you pay for personal use. They claim to have a deal with an underwriter that won't do this.
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I'm going to try to get a quote from Starr on Monday. It will be interesting to see what they say.
 
Keep us informed. I actually and the Navion on the "line" of a local flying club for a couple of years before it got too unwieldy.
 
Great idea and simple, easy to understand website. Would be curious to hear reviews from people who have used this system.
 
It's a concept that is only going to fit a detached "owner" at best but I think in reality it is just a scheme for certain entrepreneurs (as they love to call themselves) to pick up cheap old airplanes and collect money for letting people fly them. Who's gonna put in the love and who's gonna pick up the tab? well that's the big question. It ain't about insurance because insurance is just another scam in itself.

Okay let's see a show of hands among owners here - who is just itching to jump at this opportunity to let Joe Schmuck, or well - a "qualified" Joe Schmuck, take their pride and joy out for a jaunt with his GF and buds for some cash?

Anybody?......
 
the whole idea is pretty funny

Most of the roughly 150,000 piston aircraft in the U.S. fleet fly less than 100 hours a year—and a lack of utilization can accelerate engine and airframe wear and increase the hourly cost of operation.

and the solution is...turn it into a rental. Yeah that'll help wear and tear. The only thing that would be icing on the cake would be to then pay another 10% of the gross to a web site.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm going to try to get a quote from Starr on Monday. It will be interesting to see what they say.
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are you currently using Starr? I was using them until this year. Their renewal quote went up 30%, so I had to switch.
 
JHW said:
and the solution is...turn it into a rental. Yeah that'll help wear and tear. The only thing that would be icing on the cake would be to then pay another 10% of the gross to a web site.
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I would think most wear and tear on rentals come from student pilots and not certificated pilots, no?
 
momalley said:
I would think most wear and tear on rentals come from student pilots and not certificated pilots, no?
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I think not.

planes, cars, trains, boats, whatever. Rentals take a beating.
 
JHW said:
planes, cars, trains, boats, whatever. Rentals take a beating.
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Agreed. One of the major reasons people buy their own plane is to avoid the dirty, torn-up, trashed condition of most rentals of any significant age.
 
I let people fly my plane, free even. This would not be a venue I would utilize.
 
If I was an owner, I wouldn't be letting random people rent my airplane.

As was mentioned, I see this being used more for people seeing a money making opportunity by renting out their "junk".
 
I have a very under utilized 150 with a beautiful radio stack and panel mounted 296. An outlet to rent it would be great. I won't ever sell her, but some offset from a system that allows a rating system for pilots would be very interesting.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay let's see a show of hands among owners here - who is just itching to jump at this opportunity to let Joe Schmuck, or well - a "qualified" Joe Schmuck, take their pride and joy out for a jaunt with his GF and buds for some cash?

Anybody?......
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Not me! After all the work I've done refurbishing my plane to get it in near new condition, I don't want students or other low time pilots banging the crap out of it. Plus I just don't think a renter would be willing to take care of it like I do. If I was hard up for money and it was the only way I could keep it.....maybe. :rolleyes:
 
I understand they have a universal checkout, but I wonder how well this is going to work when you have someone who's only flown Cessna 172s for training and then tries to rent someone's Mooney, Arrow, or whatever it may be simply because they went through the "universal checkout"? Even if they are complex or high performance endorsed, it doesn't mean they have a lot of experience in that particular type. The website does say that the owner has the final approval, so I guess there's that.
 
LevelWing said:
I understand they have a universal checkout, but I wonder how well this is going to work when you have someone who's only flown Cessna 172s for training and then tries to rent someone's Mooney, Arrow, or whatever it may be simply because they went through the "universal checkout"? Even if they are complex or high performance endorsed, it doesn't mean they have a lot of experience in that particular type. The website does say that the owner has the final approval, so I guess there's that.
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Pilots must be checked out in type. Even 172 Steam and 172 Glass are considered different types. After the UPC, one can do type checkouts to add rentable types to their profile.
 
LevelWing said:
I understand they have a universal checkout, but I wonder how well this is going to work when you have someone who's only flown Cessna 172s for training and then tries to rent someone's Mooney, Arrow, or whatever it may be simply because they went through the "universal checkout"? Even if they are complex or high performance endorsed, it doesn't mean they have a lot of experience in that particular type. The website does say that the owner has the final approval, so I guess there's that.
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They're not stupid - it's by type. At the end of the day at least someone is trying to save GA right now and their platform is the best idea I've heard yet.
 
Quick to dismiss the idea, but there might be some merit. The goals are admirable, increased utilization and more airplanes for pilots to fly.

The idea has merit.


As for who you allow to rent, this model is already working with AirBnB on people renting rooms, apartments and houses to strangers from around the world. I think one of the keys is they require FaceBook so yo can "know" the other party by their FaceBook activity, both renters and hosts.

And, then you can leave reviews. After "trashing" a rental one time, you likely would not have somebody renting.

If I had a "airworthy" Cherokee or 172, that was a "5/10", it might be a good way to pay tie downs, insurance, and some maintenance each year.
 
jesse said:
They're not stupid - it's by type. At the end of the day at least someone is trying to save GA right now and their platform is the best idea I've heard yet.
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I didn't realize it was by type. This isn't something that I would do myself, but I'm curious to see how it develops as others sign onto it.
 
I am very interested in this and as long as good people live up to their good ratings there should be a lot more accountability. A good amount of owners that want to offset their costs some will do it. Those that view their plane higher than their own children won't and OpenAirplane knows that.
 
JoseCuervo said:
As for who you allow to rent, this model is already working with AirBnB on people renting rooms, apartments and houses to strangers from around the world.
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Unfortunately, those who rent out rooms via AirBnB are running into a lot of local trouble for violating local hotel licensing laws -- got a write-up in the NY Times this week. You may find that renting out your airplane via OA requires you to comply with local business licensing and sales tax collection laws. Take a look at all the business licenses on the wall of your local FBO for an idea of what that might entail. You might want to talk this over with a local attorney who practices small business law before you start renting out your plane to what amounts to the general public.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, those who rent out rooms via AirBnB are running into a lot of local trouble for violating local hotel licensing laws -- got a write-up in the NY Times this week. You may find that renting out your airplane via OA requires you to comply with local business licensing and sales tax collection laws. Take a look at all the business licenses on the wall of your local FBO for an idea of what that might entail. You might want to talk this over with a local attorney who practices small business law before you start renting out your plane to what amounts to the general public.
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It must be difficult to have no imagination.

No, I am not going to go talk to a local attorney that practices small business law.

Too bad you can't read a business plan / idea and see that it has merit. Yes, there might be issues to work out, and, he'll, it might not even work. But, that doesn't mean there isn't merit to the idea.

AirBnB is working, RelayRide (is that the car rental one?) is working, uber is working.... Lots of new models out there, and some of them have merit, no matter what old people that own hotels, taxi cab companies, or car rentals want to whine.

Nothing wrong with new ideas solving old problems.
 
JoseCuervo said:
It must be difficult to have no imagination.

No, I am not going to go talk to a local attorney that practices small business law.

Too bad you can't read a business plan / idea and see that it has merit. Yes, there might be issues to work out, and, he'll, it might not even work. But, that doesn't mean there isn't merit to the idea.
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I never said the idea had no merit, and your statement that I cannot read a business plan and see whatever merit is in it is false. However, a good business plan includes consideration of legal issues, and I merely pointed out that others trying the similar AirBnB model you mentioned are running into legal problems, so suggested that anyone following suit obtain appropriate legal advice from a qualified practitioner so they don't also run into trouble. You may choose not to do so, but you may also pay dearly for that decision later. Of course, that is your choice to make where your money is concerned, but I think it's very poor advice to suggest to others that they ignore potential legal issues when breaking new business ground.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, those who rent out rooms via AirBnB are running into a lot of local trouble for violating local hotel licensing laws -- got a write-up in the NY Times this week. You may find that renting out your airplane via OA requires you to comply with local business licensing and sales tax collection laws. Take a look at all the business licenses on the wall of your local FBO for an idea of what that might entail. You might want to talk this over with a local attorney who practices small business law before you start renting out your plane to what amounts to the general public.
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VRBO does great and has been with my mountain rental home. It really doesn't get beat up that much at all. Much of that has to do with a good cleaning crew. This last ski season we made just a tad over 40k from rentals.
 
I wonder if there is a market for a middle ground -- in between renting and aircraft partnership? A service to connect aircraft owners with 1 or 2 pilots who would use their aircraft and share expenses without an equity stake.

I'm sure at my local airport there are dozens of aircraft that hardly fly and I'd love to find an owner who would like to offset some of their expenses with someone who would take care of the aircraft.
 
Art VanDelay said:
VRBO does great and has been with my mountain rental home. It really doesn't get beat up that much at all. Much of that has to do with a good cleaning crew. This last ski season we made just a tad over 40k from rentals.
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What's "VRBO"? Vacation Rental By Owner?

$40k sounds like a good return. How much is the unit worth if you bought it today?
 
Here in the blue dot that is Austin the city really wants to collect hotel tax from AirBnB renters.

They aren't having much luck hunting them down.
 
Ron Levy said:
suggested that anyone following suit obtain appropriate legal advice from a qualified practitioner so they don't also run into trouble.
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Don't know how to break the news to you, Ron, but it doesn't take a consult with an attorney to open a simple small business. Does you state charge sales tax on aircraft rentals? Fine - open an account with the state tax board and get the license. Need a business license in the city you're in? Usually costs a few bucks a year. Most aircraft owners probably have relatively complex tax issues anyway, so adding in a few bucks of rental income will hardly make things much more complex either. This isn't rocket science, and I suspect the appeal will really be at airports that either are not served by a rental-FBO, or there are major availability issues.

A potential plus to this model is a work-around for the minimum hours/day charges many FBOs charge.

Jeff
 
I think the big bonus could be the diversity of aircraft available for rent. It also somewhat presents the problem when it comes to doing the checkouts.

My second point is that most might not want to join the program, there will be some that might consider it. Everybody's situation is different.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
I think the big bonus could be the diversity of aircraft available for rent. It also somewhat presents the problem when it comes to doing the checkouts.

My second point is that most might not want to join the program, there will be some that might consider it. Everybody's situation is different.
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The less common types will be a challenge for the checkouts, sure.

But all those 172s/182s that sit around 80% of the time on the ramp, you could get some hours on them at least.

I'd love to be able to do that when travelling on business...get into town, and rent a plane for a sightseeing tour...the problem now is you've got to go and get a checkout from the FBO, even though it's the same 172 that you've already been checked out in at 20 other FBOs...that just takes the wind out of your sails for a nice simple flight.

To make this a success doesn't need high-percentage uptake. Get one or two planes in an area, and suddenly travelers can get a plane and fly wherever they are.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Don't know how to break the news to you, Ron, but it doesn't take a consult with an attorney to open a simple small business. Does you state charge sales tax on aircraft rentals? Fine - open an account with the state tax board and get the license. Need a business license in the city you're in? Usually costs a few bucks a year. Most aircraft owners probably have relatively complex tax issues anyway, so adding in a few bucks of rental income will hardly make things much more complex either.
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I'll stand by my recommendation. Too many folks get too fouled up trying to avoid getting competent legal advice and end up spending far more on legal representation later than they would have spent on legal advice up front. Like the Fram oil filter guy says -- "You can pay me now or pay me later," and you'll pay a lot more later.
 
JimNtexas said:
Here in the blue dot that is Austin the city really wants to collect hotel tax from AirBnB renters.

They aren't having much luck hunting them down.
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Per the article in the NY Times, officials in NYC seem to be finding those involved. Perhaps NYC is more tech savvy? :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
I'll stand by my recommendation. Too many folks get too fouled up trying to avoid getting competent legal advice and end up spending far more on legal representation later than they would have spent on legal advice up front. Like the Fram oil filter guy says -- "You can pay me now or pay me later," and you'll pay a lot more later.
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Yeah, because somebody is going to have to pay an attorney to help them later?

Not sure your fascination or fees you get from legal referrals, but, as pointed out, not difficult to get a tax id number, a business license, or a sales tax permit.

And, you sound like you aren't aware, but there are many states that don't have sales tax, and many cities don't have business licenses. And, on and on.

And, if you were "illegal" and not collecting sales tax, the most likely scenario is you would get a "sternly worded letter" asking you to comply. Hardly a massive legal issue.

Minor details in a business plan can be worked out, no need for every Joe Planeowner to hire an attorney.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Yeah, because somebody is going to have to pay an attorney to help them later?

Not sure your fascination or fees you get from legal referrals, but, as pointed out, not difficult to get a tax id number, a business license, or a sales tax permit.

And, you sound like you aren't aware, but there are many states that don't have sales tax, and many cities don't have business licenses. And, on and on.

And, if you were "illegal" and not collecting sales tax, the most likely scenario is you would get a "sternly worded letter" asking you to comply. Hardly a massive legal issue.

Minor details in a business plan can be worked out, no need for every Joe Planeowner to hire an attorney.
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Remember in evaluating this advice that it won't cost Jose a dime if you end up in court or with a big penalty for failing to collect/pay taxes or get the necessary licenses. And contrary to Jose's implication, I don't make any money at all because someone follows my advice, although I must admit to some personal satisfaction when someone stays out of trouble because they did.
 
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