One Way at a Time, Please

MSmith

MSmith

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
903
Location
Hamilton, NJ
Display Name
Display name:
Mark Smith
This happened on my flight yesterday:

South Jersey Regional - VAY - 3911 feet runway 8/26. Last 1300 feet of the western end of the runway has no taxiway, so you have to back-taxi to the beginning of runway 8 and use the turn-around pad.

We (my wife and I) got into the plane, all set up (GPS, etc) and taxied out to the runway. Winds were 310 at 4, then variable at 4. The planes in the pattern were using runway 8 - the sock was so limp that it didn't provide any useful guidance. I waited for a few landings, and then back-taxied.

While I was at the end of the runway waiting for a plane to land, another plane announced on the 45 for runway 26. We were using 8, so I asked whether he meant 8 or 26.

Cherokee B: OK. Cherokee turning downwind for 8.
Cherokee A: Cherokee turning final for 8.
Cherokee A lands and pulls off, nobody visible on base or final, so ...
Me: Cherokee departing runway 8.
Cherokee B: Cherokee turning base for 8.
Full throttle, start rolling (he's behind me, right?)
Cherokee B: Cherokee turning final for runway 8.
WAIT! He's lined up for 26 - directly opposite me! :eek:
Me: Aircraft on final for 26 - I am coming at you the other way!
He doesn't turn, or go around.
Me: South Jersey Cherokee aborting takeoff runway 8.
Cherokee B: Cherokee going around

OK, good - he's not going to land on me.

I turned off the runway and called Clear of the Active.

Cherokee B: Aren't we using 26?
Cherokee A: We're using 8.
Cherokee B: We were using 26 when I left
Cherokee A: The winds shifted, now we're using 8.
Cherokee B: Cherokee turning downwind for runway 8. (He'd flown upwind and just shifted right to be on downwind.)
The Cherokee B landed on 8. I'm sitting on the taxiway, and there NO WAY I'm going to back-taxi until the other guy is down. He calls base and final and lands on 8. I wrote down his tail number and the time - in case I decided to report him (at this point I won't).
Cherokee B: South Jersey Cherokee clear of the active
Me: By the way, runway 8 is the one with the big EIGHT at the end
Cherokee B: Thanks, buddy.
Guys at the club on handheld: You handled that correctly, Mark
Me: Thanks

In case you were wondering - you can't see the end of downwind for 26 from the end of 8 - there are trees in the way.

I was at about 45 knots (rotation at 60) in a Warrior when I decided to abort. I still made the "midfield" taxiway (really at about 2000 feet going that way) and was clear.
 
There's a lesson in there, Mark. There's the odd idiot out there, and there's also the case where we screw up and call the wrong runway number -- I'll bet everyone on this board has done that at least once, and/or called left traffic when we meant right, etc.

You can't assume that because 8 has been in use that someone won't land on 26, particularly in calm winds (26 is the preferred runway). You may also get someone on the VOR A approach who may want to do a straight-in to 26.

YMMV, but the mantra I was taught (and still use), is to call out and scan for traffic: downwind, base, final, opposite traffic (in a heli looking for airplanes, in an airplane looking for helis), and then opposite end of the runway.

BTW, when I was a student, I very nearly had a head-on at VAY. It was on a presolo checkride with the club's then Chief Pilot. I announced and departed 8, was scanning for traffic before my left turn to x-wind, and the CFI and I both realized that there was an aircraft on right base for 26. A hard right turn avoided an accident, but I'm happy to say that that incident plus some runway incursion earned that pilot a 709 checkride.

I *hate* backtaxiing! We have it here on runway 9, but, Praise Be, the taxiway is supposed to be extended next year.
 
Mark,

I know how you feel...anytime at an uncontrolled field when the wind is not clearly favoring a particular runway (ie light winds or a 90 degree cross wind to the only runway) you never know which way people will pick for departing or landing. I try to identify anyone moving on the ground and in the air. The fellow in your example looses points for mis identifying the runway.

Of course, you also get the added variable of the locally known "light wind runway" or the always popular "well everyone knows we really like to use such and such runway". :<)

Len
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I *hate* backtaxiing! We have it here on runway 9, but, Praise Be, the taxiway is supposed to be extended next year.
Click to expand...

Bob,

Any word on getting a VASI and/or AWOS at N99?

Len
 
Not to be a pain in the ass but you cant really report him. It's uncontrolled. He can make a tailwind landing if he so wants. No harm no foul. I am no saying he is correct, but rather that you can't get him on anything.

I think you too, handled that greatly. Good for you! Keep up the safe flying.

On another note, I got chewed out by a cherokee driver in an uncontrolled airport once when coming in the jet. It only had one approach to the runway and it wasnt into the wind (3kts of wind). He sternly let me know that they were not using that runway and in fact had the nerve to taxi over and explain that to me in person. I just smiled (my normal reaction to such things) and that didn't appease him either. :)

Brent
 
I wasn't planning on reporting him - though the errors were his (reporting the wrong runway for the pattern that he was flying).

A question for the IFR types out there (I'm not one yet) - at an uncontrolled field is it common practice when there is one approach to go ahead and land in that direction with a small tailwind, or to break off the approach and land with traffic? Assume VFR conditions - or the other folks wouldn't be in the pattern. I believe that at VAY, the latter is more common (break off approach and enter downwind for the other way).
 
Mark: Sometimes it difficult at uncontrolled fields when mixing VFR and IFR traffic, especially if the field has not AWOS etc. or winds that aren't a factor. IFR traffic may be on an ATC freq until a few mile final. I once had a 110 degree wind shift between the IAF and 4mi final. We called our straight in and other pilots kindly let us know they switched from 24 to 6 we thanked them and jogged right to transition from final for 24 to a down wind for 6.

The problem Mr. Cherokee had was he announced 8 but was landing 24. Lesson is communicate communicate communicate, But then again what good would it have done if he announced 8 but was on 26. Hopefully the pilot will be embarrassed enough to really think about it the next time he is in the pattern.

Adam Zucker
 
I wasn't there but in similar circumstances I have elected to continue the takeoff with a side step to the right of centerline after breaking ground or to abort the takeoff as Mark did. It depends. No one did anything wrong other than possible inaccurate calls from the inbound Cherokee.

The lesson there is to expect the unexpected, even at a controlled field. Hell, at a Class C I was almost run over by a Falcon 10 because ATC inadvertenly cleared our simultaneous departures on opposite rwys.

Anyway, operations at uncontrolled fields should be no big deal. The problem is too many pilots haven't looked at the FAR/AIM in years, act like they own the aprt, or they think radios are required.

I'm still chafed by the guy last wknd who burned my ears on freq calling me in inept idiot who should'nt be in the air because I wasn't transmitting while approaching to land at a uncontrolled field.
 
Uncontrolled means just that. At BTP two summers ago I was departing 26 with great care, as you can't see the departure end of 8. A Cherokee driver must have pulled on to 8, keyed the mike "departing 8" while I was already on the roll on 26. I shut it down, stood on the brakes, got off on the first taxiway as he roared away. Having monitored the CTAF for 5-10 minutes ahead, I'm quite sure he kicked the tares and lit the fares to depart.

Whadda maroon. Almost killed us both. I had the right freq...when I chewed on him verbally he replied, "First come first served".
 
Mark

You did well to just get out of the way. there are "pilots" who fly, will no matter what will make life miserable for pilots who work with in the guide lines of safety. I remember so along ago when being in a pattern of close to 8 planes nose to tail doing touch and goes. I was in a J-3 and Yup an US Army King Air, as I was turning final, was about to land opposite me. I never hesitated and went around.

John J
 
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MSmith said:
A question for the IFR types out there (I'm not one yet) - at an uncontrolled field is it common practice when there is one approach to go ahead and land in that direction with a small tailwind, or to break off the approach and land with traffic? Assume VFR conditions
Click to expand...

Mark,

IMHO there isn't really a common practice. Lots of things will affect what the approaching IFR PIC might do. One example, someone is approaching in marginal VFR weather they might feel uncomfortable making a circling approach to the runway favored by the wind if they don't know the local surroundings.

Len
 
bbchien said:
Uncontrolled means just that. At BTP two summers ago I was departing 26 with great care, as you can't see the departure end of 8. A Cherokee driver must have pulled on to 8, keyed the mike "departing 8" while I was already on the roll on 26. I shut it down, stood on the brakes, got off on the first taxiway as he roared away. Having monitored the CTAF for 5-10 minutes ahead, I'm quite sure he kicked the tares and lit the fares to depart.

Whadda maroon. Almost killed us both. I had the right freq...when I chewed on him verbally he replied, "First come first served".
Click to expand...

I had about the same problem at OKV last year. Cancelled IFR in the air once I got below the deck (" '2LB, please cancel when you can, I have IFR on the ground waiting to depart") , entered a downwind for the pattern for Rwy 14, turned short final to hear a Twin Cessna announce: "taking runway 32 for immediate departure", and saw him rolling toward the runway. I announced short final *again*, which was met with "don't worry, we'll be out of your way soon". My response was "either you wait, or I go around now, your choice". To his credit, he waited. The wind was 130 at 8 kts. He was using 32 because he was departing to the northwest & he wanted to avoid the DP that takes you south first.

Yeah, I know about void times and all that, but Potomac usually gives you long enough to deal with pattern traffic. NORDO traffic have been known to use KOKV.

I'm now much less likely to cancel when I know somebody's waiting if there's an RCO. It just doesn't pay to be nice sometimes.
 
MSmith said:
A question for the IFR types out there (I'm not one yet) - at an uncontrolled field is it common practice when there is one approach to go ahead and land in that direction with a small tailwind, or to break off the approach and land with traffic? Assume VFR conditions - or the other folks wouldn't be in the pattern. I believe that at VAY, the latter is more common (break off approach and enter downwind for the other way).
Click to expand...

Evening Mr. Smith,

As "Lenny" stated. There are numerous reasons why someone would go ahead and land with a tailwind. Personally, I always make sure that I have enough runway to do so legally. It only takes 3 seconds b/c it's a program on the palm pilot. However, anyway, it depends on the aircraft. In a jet, yeah, if the winds are less and you are going to land well with in distance why not. It will decrease the chance that you wondering out and hit something, lets say, at 600AGL (circleing to land) and kill people besides yourself. Remember, you are at a low altitude and lower speeds with normally a critical wing. For some jets, the back side of a power curve is not somewhere you want to be down low and circling. You would have to really screw up but it can and has happened. Your radius of turns is increased compared to a lets say Cessna at 80kts. So the spacing paralled to the runway has to be more. So low vis but VFR, you might not want to circle and decrease the level of safety when you can just land straight ahead. Yes, there are distance requirements for different speeds of aircraft but pilot error can weigh into this senerio and you can screw up pretty easily. Even at Flight Safety, they will preach that into you.

Our company practice is to have someone on local frequency talking pretty far out from the airport. Our callout goes something like this:
"Ponca City traffice, Omni45 is 8 miles out on the ILS 17 coming in from the north to the south and will be landing to the south, Ponca City". We always try and give a direction for some of the VFR guys that might not know exactly which direction that approach might be.

Again, you situation was handled great! I was just offering up another problem that might potentionally arise. It was an off shoot of what happened to you. Safe flying.

Brent
 
Brent Bradford said:
Not to be a pain in the ass but you cant really report him. It's uncontrolled. He can make a tailwind landing if he so wants. No harm no foul. I am no saying he is correct, but rather that you can't get him on anything.
Click to expand...

I agree -- there aren't any rules he broke, and if one wishes to get really technical, YOU were in violation for not giving way to a landing airplane, even though he wasn't where he said he was (which might make a pretty good defense, i.e., lack of intent). What I might suggest is putting this in the hands of the local Aviation Safety Counselor, who might talk with the pilot about the importance of determining what's going on around the traffic pattern before punching into it, and of making accurate calls on the radio in CTAF.

Brent Bradford said:
I think you too, handled that greatly. Good for you! Keep up the safe flying.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
MSmith said:
I wasn't planning on reporting him - though the errors were his (reporting the wrong runway for the pattern that he was flying).

A question for the IFR types out there (I'm not one yet) - at an uncontrolled field is it common practice when there is one approach to go ahead and land in that direction with a small tailwind, or to break off the approach and land with traffic? Assume VFR conditions - or the other folks wouldn't be in the pattern. I believe that at VAY, the latter is more common (break off approach and enter downwind for the other way).
Click to expand...

I can't comment on how common it is to circle or not, but I can provide my personal opinion on the matter. In excellent VMC, I would get into the pattern if it is busy. If it isn't too busy and winds are light, I might land on the runway indicated by the approach (if not a circling-only approach), for practice. If the runway is long, it is good occasionally to practice landing with a slight tailwind. The reason for this is that circling at minimums really sucks, and when IMC exists and you are just below the clouds at minimums, it may be preferable to land straight in with a slight tailwind (on a sufficiently long runway) than to circle around just to get to a "better" runway.

In marginal VMC, I would make my decision based on how busy the airport is.
 
wangmyers said:
I can't comment on how common it is to circle or not, but I can provide my personal opinion on the matter. In excellent VMC, I would get into the pattern if it is busy. If it isn't too busy and winds are light, I might land on the runway indicated by the approach (if not a circling-only approach), for practice. If the runway is long, it is good occasionally to practice landing with a slight tailwind. The reason for this is that circling at minimums really sucks, and when IMC exists and you are just below the clouds at minimums, it may be preferable to land straight in with a slight tailwind (on a sufficiently long runway) than to circle around just to get to a "better" runway.

In marginal VMC, I would make my decision based on how busy the airport is.
Click to expand...


In good VMC, I absolutely agree with you. Cancel and join the ongoing parade. In marginal, I would not be at all quick to consider joining a circle to land, i.e. the pattern. I have been from LNS over to my home airport of S37 on a number of occasions coming back from practice in actual. That marginal VMC has been pretty bad at times, bad enough that I would not have wanted to do it, even though we were legally doing it under Special or even Marginal VMC, without really knowing well where we were going. At a strange airport, under marginal conditions, I would probably want to shoot that approach and just call actively, along with my best see and avoid. The good thing about marginal VMC days is that many VFR pilots will not fly them. The pattern tends to be quieter.

Jim G
 
Thanks again, guys.

When I asked about IFR approach procedures under VFR conditions - I was thinking really nice days (when the pattern is likely to be crowded). If it's too crummy to circle, it's probably too crummy to be busy.
 
WRT IFR arrivals in VMC my biggest peeve is the IFR traffic making all the appropriate calls but relative to fixes or points the VFR guy doesn't know anything about. Since I got the IR when making calls I try to include landbased references (or at least range and course from the aprt) as well as the fix. What is communicated unless the call is meaningful to the listener?

And, to respond to what Ben said about letting a busy patt determine his rwy while arriving in MVFR, I disagree. If he meant coordinating with VFR traffic, then yes, do that. But I'm going the safest route and if that means opposite to the flow I accept that.
 
Richard said:
And, to respond to what Ben said about letting a busy patt determine his rwy while arriving in MVFR, I disagree. If he meant coordinating with VFR traffic, then yes, do that. But I'm going the safest route and if that means opposite to the flow I accept that.
Click to expand...

That's basically what I meant--case by case in MVFR.
 
MSmith said:
A question for the IFR types out there (I'm not one yet) - at an uncontrolled field is it common practice when there is one approach to go ahead and land in that direction with a small tailwind, or to break off the approach and land with traffic? Assume VFR conditions - or the other folks wouldn't be in the pattern. I believe that at VAY, the latter is more common (break off approach and enter downwind for the other way).
Click to expand...

Generally, I will try to blend in with existing traffic as much as practical, and IME if the conditions are adequate for VFR traffic in the pattern, I would circle to the runway favored by the wind unless there was a compelling reason not to. That said, sometimes it's tough to determine what if any VFR pattern traffic exists when on an approach especially when ATC is slow to turn me over to the CTAF. And unfortunately that happens more often when the ATC freq. is busy which also makes it difficult to monitor the CTAF while still with ATC. I always listen to the automated weather if available and again, would plan to circle to the wind favored runway as long as the visibility and cloud bases made it safe to do so at least in the daytime. At night, at an unfamiliar airport I'd be inclined to land straight in downwind if the winds were light. And I cannot think of any time where I landed downwind when there was VFR traffic present.
 
Here's a reason to land downwind: Weather. A couple of seasons ago in the ICE clag of winter, I took a bunch of Donors of Lifeline Pilots to Chicago for a reception. CMI wind favored the Back Course 14L but those mins were dicey. The ILS 14 was a make with a seven knot tailwind. Rather than mess with a marginal approach in ice, we took the tailwind. We had 8100 feet. Not a sweat.
 
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