One more reason to watch out at a towered field...

wsuffa

wsuffa

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Display name:
Bill S.
HEF is known for being a training tower. Yesterday they hosed it big time around 5 PM - to the point that the tower apologized on the air to all in the pattern.... including me.

I was returning the plane from HWY (where we had a good and pretty clean annual....) to home base at HEF. Potomac Approach turned me over to tower, who directed me to enter right downwind for 16R. There were others in the pattern. I decided (fortutiously) to make the pattern a bit broader than I usually do so as to bleed off a bit of airspeed.

As I leveled out, I heard a call from a plane who said he was turning crosswind to downwind at the departure end of the runway (just about my position at the time). I looked to my right and saw a yellow Piper level, my altitude, on downwind. Hadn't seen him climb out nor on crosswind. Tower called "Cessna" with my callsign (I'm a Commander) to be number two for landing. My response was quick - I'd need a 360 to come in behind the Piper. He quickly responded that there were two planes with similar callsigns in the pattern and directed the "Cessna" to follow "the Cirrus" - which he now identified with my call - on downwind. I corrected him (noting that I saw no Cirrus in the pattern), and was given a "thank you, Commander (my call) cleared to land number 1 - Cessna follow the Commander". Guess he thought the Piper was a Cessna, too. Gear down, flaps out, I turned final.

Heard tower make this announcement: "Attention all traffic in the pattern. Manassas is a training tower. I got the sequencing messed up. I apologize". Followed 15 seconds later with "plane on final, say callsign". I responded - he again called me a Cirrus - and cleared me to land (again).

I made the A-3 turnoff and cleared the runway. Plane behind me called tower and asked if he had clearance to land. No response - I could see him on short final. I announced to tower that I was clear of 16R (at that point I had not been turned over to ground nor given taxi instructions), he cleared the plane behind me to land and told me to taxi to ramp (he also blew the taxi instruction as he was supposed to indicate the route - "taxi to ramp via Alpha").

Yeah, I'll be filing ASRS. But I wanted folks here to note the incident and beware of operations in and around Class D towers. Keep head on a swivel.
 
Just to clarify a point here, most towers are now what you would call a "training tower". (i.e. There are people in the tower controlling traffic who are not in possession of a Certified Professional Controller certificate and who are being supervised by a training controller.)

I know of 12 towers that will have brand new controllers by next week and 2 others the week after that. In fact there are a bunch of other towers (probably close to 60 this month alone) that just got new developmental controllers from Oklahoma City.

I was going to make some guesses as to what happened, but in the interest of not being "that guy", I would recommend just calling the tower and talking to them first....

--Matt Rogers
 
Wow. Sounds like the trainee needed Depends.

Ya think the supervisor stepped away for a second?
 
The rogue said:
Just to clarify a point here, most towers are now what you would call a "training tower". (i.e. There are people in the tower controlling traffic who are not in possession of a Certified Professional Controller certificate and who are being supervised by a training controller.)
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HEF has long been a designated training tower, even before the latest round of FAA recruiting.
 
A training tower is the one where the pilot ends up wearing the Depends.
 
wanttaja said:
It's got two little towers on either side of the main one. :)
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:rofl:

I don't think there's any way for us to find out which towers are "training towers" but KFCM is (was?) one too - I'm sure Lance has a few stories. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think there's any way for us to find out which towers are "training towers" but KFCM is (was?) one too - I'm sure Lance has a few stories.
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If there's no way for anyone to find out which towers are "training towers" how do you know KFCM is (was?) one?
 
roncachamp said:
If there's no way for anyone to find out which towers are "training towers" how do you know KFCM is (was?) one?
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Word of mouth. One of the FAA's designated controller colleges is up in MN and that's where their people go for their first real experience.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Word of mouth. One of the FAA's designated controller colleges is up in MN and that's where their people go for their first real experience.
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Like medical interns? They train there for a while with live traffic and are then sent out to work as controllers at non-training towers?
 
My experience with KFCM has always been positive. They always seemed professional to me and were one of the better towers I've regularly flown into.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Something like that.
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Nothing like that. An FAA controller can spend his entire career at his first field facility. If none of the controllers at a fully-staffed facility choose to bid on jobs at other facilities there'll be no training at that facility because there are no new controllers to train.
 
roncachamp said:
Nothing like that. An FAA controller can spend his entire career at his first field facility. If none of the controllers at a fully-staffed facility choose to bid on jobs at other facilities there'll be no training at that facility because there are no new controllers to train.
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Are you just being argumentative then, or is there some point to your little game?
 
SkyHog said:
Are you just being argumentative then, or is there some point to your little game?
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I'm trying to gain an understanding of the term "training tower" that I hear from time to time. I know that training is conducted at every control tower, so I don't know what people mean when they use that term. So I ask questions, that's how I learn. How do you learn?
 
roncachamp said:
I'm trying to gain an understanding of the term "training tower" that I hear from time to time. I know that training is conducted at every control tower, so I don't know what people mean when they use that term. So I ask questions, that's how I learn. How do you learn?
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Usually by not being snotty.

A training tower is a tower in which training occurs. If you wanna push that, you could say all towers are training towers.

I'd bet the real answer is something along the lines of "most of the controllers are still in training."

Also - KASH's tower is a training tower. How do I know? Because the controllers are ALL students from Daniel Webster College's ATC program. Now snipe at me instead for a while.
 
SkyHog said:
Are you just being argumentative then, or is there some point to your little game?
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Naw... Steven. P always has the correct answer and is well versed is all the ATC stuff. I respect his knowledge but he can get "obsessive" at times,. <G> We call it the "Mc Nicolls" effect.:eek:.

Tailwinds.
Ben,
 
roncachamp said:
How was HEF designated as a "training tower"?
Click to expand...
HEF is also a contract tower - the folks there are certified but are not federal employees.

Locals have had issues with HEF tower controllers for years - some are top notch, some should have retired a while back.. The "newbies" aren't too bad to live with, as they will admit and learn from their errors. The "senior" who told me to position and hold on 16R while an airplane was about 1/2 mile out for 16R, on the other hand, and then got snippy with me when I said "we'll hold right here for landing traffic", needed to go.
 
SkyHog said:
Usually by not being snotty.
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But not this time.

A training tower is a tower in which training occurs. If you wanna push that, you could say all towers are training towers.
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Bingo. All towers are "training towers" so the term "training tower" is meaningless.
 
roncachamp said:
But not this time.



Bingo. All towers are "training towers" so the term "training tower" is meaningless.
Click to expand...

So I've gone back and read most of your posts. I'm assuming you're either a controller or married to one, since everytime anything comes around that MIGHT be considered to be a bit of a negative comment, you come out guns a blazing, bitching and moaning about everything in the post.

So I'm done. I hope when KAEG's tower opens, it becomes a training tower. That'd be swell.
 
jesse said:
My experience with KFCM has always been positive. They always seemed professional to me and were one of the better towers I've regularly flown into.
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I've only flown in and out of KFCM once, and don't recall much about the tower - so it must have been good. At least for me, the only time I remember ATC is when things get screwed up.
 
TMetzinger said:
Locals have had issues with HEF tower controllers for years - some are top notch, some should have retired a while back.. The "newbies" aren't too bad to live with, as they will admit and learn from their errors. The "senior" who told me to position and hold on 16R while an airplane was about 1/2 mile out for 16R, on the other hand, and then got snippy with me when I said "we'll hold right here for landing traffic", needed to go.
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Ya, but you miss the nasty woman who used to work there... I had a couple of run-ins with her when I was a transient...
 
I can be verbose online, so I am....

For the benefit of those curious, here is the training process for an Air Traffic Controller in the Air Traffic Organization within the FAA:

Just so everyone knows from where I speak, I am sitting in Oklahoma City right now waiting to re-take my check ride at the FAA Academy. (Bonehead mistakes get you here just like they get some of us during flying check rides.:mad:)

There are two "types" of towers in the US: Contract and FAA. The contract towers usually have ex-military or former FAA controllers there. A tower you have not controlled before is like an airplane that you have never flown, it takes time to get rated and learn all the nuances. This means that while the contract towers are not filled with developmental controllers, there is still instruction (to some degree) going on there. Almost all FAA control towers have developmental controllers at this point.

My experience is as an "off the street" hire into the FAA with no previous controlling experience. I went through training for two months on everything from the National Airspace System, NOTAMs, TERPS, Charts, FARs, to the command structure of the FAA in a class called appropriately "Air Traffic Basics".

I have spent the last month in a class called "Initial Tower Cab Training" where we run simulations on three differrent types of "simulators" so that the training is appropriately paced for our skill level.

God willing, tomorrow afternoon I will drive home, pick up my wife and daughter and drive all of our stuff to Muskegon, Michigan. There are two other Developmental controllers there that are currently at the very beginning of the training process as well.

After I start, I will have two more weeks of classroom instruction at MKG. Then I will begin training on position.

The four positions in an Airport Traffic Control Tower (ATCT--and yes that is right according to the FAA) are Flight Data, Clearance Delivery, Ground Control, and Local Control. Flight Data compiles statistical data and basically assists clearance delivery. The other positions are self explanatory. You check out on positions in the order listed (the order of "difficulty") more or less because this is part of the building blocks. Ask a CFI about the "building block" approach, "Simple to Complex" is a good way to teach most things and ATC is no different.

The training varies in length depending on the airport's complexity. I have a classmate who starts at LAX tomorrow. She is a sharp student and it will still take her 2+ years to get checked out in all positions. At LAX, Ground control is the hardest position to check out on, by the way. At MKG, or ALO (where two other classmates are headed) the training will take about a year.

That means that in a year or so, those of us with approach control facilities colocated with the tower will be headed back to Oklahoma City to attend the Radar Training Facility so that we can work in the tower and the radar/approach control.

Almost all towers and centers and TRACONs have developmental controllers training in one position or another. Even the contract towers probably have people that are not rated for that cab even thought they have previous experience. I know that Oxnard, CA and Manhattan, KS are each short one controller each because I had classmates from each of these facilities. There are no specifically designated "training towers". All towers essentially have their own "Operating Manual" just like each aircraft. Even a 777 Captain with 4000 hours in type needs to go to school to fly a King Air 200, even though it is "less complex".

Another example: ORD hires only former military controllers as does Chicago TRACON, for obvious reasons. Technically speaking, since these controllers are not rated for ORD or C90, both of these places are training facilities. I am not sure if the former military controllers are "Developmental Controllers" but I think that they are not because they have previous experience.

I have been told that I am going to MKG because they needed people, plain and simple. Lots of retiring controllers means that there are lots of positions to fill. Steven was right, I could stay at MKG for another 19 and retire. My friends could stay at ALO for another 19 and retire.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

--Matt Rogers
 
Re: I can be verbose online, so I am....

Hey everybody can have a bad day. In the early 90s as I approached Prescott AZ, I was probalby #16 for the field, and was tracking the ILS inbound in VMC (as I was not intimately familiar with the valley. I was handed form appCon to Tower and I couldn't get it.

A female voice was chewing out a Seminole XX-ER for nearly overtaking a hawk in the pattern. There must have been ten on frequency.

The voice changed. This was a booming deep male sterotype voice. The Seminole was sent to Drake VOR Right traffic, hold north at 9000. Two skyhawks were sent out to hold at 7000 and 6000. Then there was a pause. "Okay everyone, Listen up good or you'll end up at Drake at 10,000.....Then the machine gun list of instructions at the end of which was, Mooney XX86N (me) do you have the T6? (YES!). You are #six for the field: Follow him, make left traffic runway 12, keep it tight the VOR is VERY VERY BUSY."
 
Bruce,
Like I said, those Twin Cherokees will get you every time.

For those who don't know: my checkride bust was due to the extra Twin Cherokee on the runway....and no, I don't call them "Twin Cherokee".... :D

--Matt Rogers
 
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Another example: ORD hires only former military controllers as does Chicago TRACON,
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While ORD and C90 (Chicago TRACON) generally don't get folks directly from the FAA Academy, they also don't hire "only" former military controllers. Matt Rogers may even find himself opting to transfer to ORD/C90 in another year or two.

Most everything else Matt posted was reasonably accurate.
 
SkyHog said:
So I've gone back and read most of your posts. I'm assuming you're either a controller or married to one, since everytime anything comes around that MIGHT be considered to be a bit of a negative comment, you come out guns a blazing, bitching and moaning about everything in the post.
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If by "guns a blazing, bitching and moaning about everything in the post" you mean correcting misconceptions, you are correct.
 
Mike,

Absolutely right on the clarification. My sentence was misleading at the very best, and inaccurate at the worst. I should have said what you said, that they don't hire "off the street" folks like myself until we have some experience and a good recommendation.

I might end up there in a year or two, but I will probably go somewhere further south.

Side note:, I PASSED! It was kind of scary, but it was an honest pass.

MKG: ready or not here I come!!! :hairraise:

--Matt Rogers
 
TheRogue said:
Side note:, I PASSED! It was kind of scary, but it was an honest pass.
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Did you guys get that? He passed QUAL. He'll be in the tower at Muskegon, very very shortly.....
 
Congrats Matt.

Just remember those of us using the prefix POA on our call up get preferential treatment. All the cool towers are doing it. :goofy:;)
 
Here's another "Watch Out At A Towered Field"!

************************************************************

NTSB INVESTIGATING RUNWAY INCURSION IN ALLENTOWN, PA.

************************************************************

The National Transportation Safety Board is
investigating a runway incursion Friday evening in
Allentown, Pennsylvania involving a general aviation
aircraft and a Chicago-bound regional jet airliner.

At 7:45 p.m. on September 19, a Cessna R172K (N736GV)
was on a landing roll on runway 6 at the Lehigh Valley
International Airport when the pilot was instructed to exit
the runway at taxiway A4. Mesa Airlines flight 7138, a CRJ-
700 (N506MJ), already instructed to position and hold on the
same runway, was then given clearance by the same controller
to take off.

During the takeoff roll, the Mesa crew heard the
Cessna pilot say that he'd missed the taxiway A4 turnoff and
ask to exit at taxiway B. The Mesa crew saw the Cessna
ahead on the runway and aborted the takeoff at about 120
knots, swerving around the Cessna. The Mesa crew estimated
that they missed colliding with the Cessna by about 10 feet.

Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and
there were no reported injuries to the 60 persons aboard the
jet or those aboard the Cessna.
 
Has the Red Board turned blue? Where am I?? :eek: :eek:

Man, it's usually nicer around here than this... :yes:
 
Interesting, Matt... Thanks for the post! :yes:

So, is it bad enough that they'd hire an old fogey (34) like me?

I'd love to work here at MSN or another up/down facility, but word is our TRACON is moving to Milwaukee sometime in the next couple of years. :(
 
The rogue said:
Mike,


Side note:, I PASSED! It was kind of scary, but it was an honest pass.

MKG: ready or not here I come!!! :hairraise:

--Matt Rogers
Click to expand...
MKG is a good place to work. Some pilots (like my DE for my IFR checkride) do NOT like to fly over water. I was at GRR from '92-'96. It is a good stepping stone to ZAU, if you have that desire. Congrats and Good Luck!:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
Joe B said:
Here's another "Watch Out At A Towered Field"!

************************************************************

NTSB INVESTIGATING RUNWAY INCURSION IN ALLENTOWN, PA.

************************************************************

The National Transportation Safety Board is
investigating a runway incursion Friday evening in
Allentown, Pennsylvania involving a general aviation
aircraft and a Chicago-bound regional jet airliner.

At 7:45 p.m. on September 19, a Cessna R172K (N736GV)
was on a landing roll on runway 6 at the Lehigh Valley
International Airport when the pilot was instructed to exit
the runway at taxiway A4. Mesa Airlines flight 7138, a CRJ-
700 (N506MJ), already instructed to position and hold on the
same runway, was then given clearance by the same controller
to take off.

During the takeoff roll, the Mesa crew heard the
Cessna pilot say that he'd missed the taxiway A4 turnoff and
ask to exit at taxiway B. The Mesa crew saw the Cessna
ahead on the runway and aborted the takeoff at about 120
knots, swerving around the Cessna. The Mesa crew estimated
that they missed colliding with the Cessna by about 10 feet.

Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and
there were no reported injuries to the 60 persons aboard the
jet or those aboard the Cessna.
Click to expand...

Oooh boy, the FAA's gonna have some trouble explaining this one...

Trainees In The Tower In Airliner "Swerve"

An incident that thankfully ended with some fairly rattled pilots and passengers but no more than a little lost tire rubber begs the question of who is training whom at some of the nation's air traffic control towers. The National Air Traffic Controllers Union says two trainee controllers were in on duty by themselves in the Lehigh International Airport tower when a Mesa Airlines CRJ700 had to swerve (as in the sudden deviation from a straight path) to avoid a just-landed Cessna 172 while taking off from the Allentown, Pa., airport. The widely accepted estimate is the RJ, with 60 passengers aboard, missed the 172 by about 10 feet while decelerating from 120 knots. According to the NTSB, the Cessna was told to take an early taxiway exit but missed and the pilot reported he or she was heading for the next taxiway. The trainees missed that and, thinking the 172 had left the runway, cleared the RJ for takeoff.
______________________________

Y'know, someone, or maybe a lot of someones, is/are going to die because of the FAA's stubbornness on the controller issue. :mad: Blame it on Marion Blakey... Or better yet, FIX THE DAMN PROBLEM. It'll only get worse before it gets better. An airliner full of people is gonna have to crash and burn before any real progress will be made. :(
 
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