Once upon a time....

Toby

Toby

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,068
Location
Long Island, NY
Display Name
Display name:
Toby Speed
.....a long time ago in a faraway place I came to this board and posted lots of stories. Then I sailed away for a year and a day to the land where the bong tree grows...

Actually I just got extremely busy. But I have missed all of you and hope you'll take me back!

What's new in my life:
my sweet little airplane
I just love her!
she does a wheelie when she sees me coming (every day almost)
sometimes I wash her
sometimes I talk to my tiedown neighbors
sometimes I move stuff around in her, or move stuff into her, or out of her
sometimes I just listen to my radio
we have visitors
she has all kinds of things on her panel that I don't understand yet
my friend gave me an ancient Piper book that's called (I think) "Let's Fly." The men in the photos are wearing black suits and ties. The women are wearing "shifts" and high heels.

Today I went out after work to start polishing her. I had spent 2 hours yesterday washing her. But it was such a gorgeous day, so I left work at 5 and by 5:40 I was out at the airport with sunshine to spare. So I preflighted her and went up for a sunset flight. I headed out east to nowhere in particular, played with my VORs and Loran, which amazingly seems to have some GPS capabilities! and I wish I had an owner's manual! and anyway I was up there tootling along until I came to the area between the forks that's filled with little islands, peninsulas, and other odd-shaped pieces of land. It's an area I love. And I just traced the outlines of the islands and peninsulas with my airplane, nice and slow at around 1500 feet. It was like cutting out paper dolls. A little left, a little right, a dip, a tuck, a pointed place, a sharp turn, a swooping semicircle.

After I traced all the islands I headed back into the sunset. At that point I was sorry I hadn't wiped down the windshield after washing it yesterday -- there were water spots all over it that made visibility terrible. I think if I hadn't had all those spots I could have seen New York City. Anyway. We traced the north shoreline, passed Calverton and nobody was jumping, made a left and headed home. The sun was just going down. Nice sweet landing and I had the runway and practically the whole airport to myself.

I just love this airplane!!!! She lands herself. All you do is think airport, and she heads that way and just gets herself down.

So I tied her down and wrote down all my numbers (I made myself a fanatically many-columned chart on which to record fuel before and after, Hobbs time, tach time, oil quantity, oil added, etc. etc. etc.), stuck the tanks, locked her up and went home.

Did I mention that I love my airplane?
 
Welcome back Toby.

You can't help but love a plane that understands what you want to do and doesn't require effort to get along with it.
Then again, there's the commitments. Like the casual taxi back to the hangar from the 2+ hour wash/wax session when it's like an excited puppy after dangling his leash in front of him and there's no way you can say no to a walk, um, hop around the area. You're just gonna go because you have to and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
what kind of loran Toby, if we can't find you a manual maybe we can figure out how to work it (sounds like you had some doubts?)

I used to have an old boat loran, no database, you had to tell it where you were on start-up, and every grid change but it was accurate to a half mile or less every time, took it across the country 2x in the 150.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
what kind of loran Toby, if we can't find you a manual maybe we can figure out how to work it (sounds like you had some doubts?)

I used to have an old boat loran, no database, you had to tell it where you were on start-up, and every grid change but it was accurate to a half mile or less every time, took it across the country 2x in the 150.
Click to expand...
It's a Northstar M1. It looks pretty easy, but I don't want to be fiddling with it while I'm flying when I should be looking outside. I see you can program in hundreds and hundreds of airports and see what course to take there and how many nautical miles away they are. The big knob seems to highlight about 8 main pages.

I ordered a GPS, anyway. It should be here tomorrow.
 
Ah, I have an M1 they are great, as accurate and reliable as a GPS. Probably the database is out of date but they used to upgrade them for 200bucks. Jot this down:

Turn the LH outer knob til the APT (airport) light is illuminated.
Hit CRSR (cursor) to get the ID flashing.
Dial up the airport you want, (the outer LH knob now moves between the three figures, the inner LH knob scrolls the available letters and numbers) No 'K' needed, as in KDFW just "DFW".
Hit CRSR again to stop the blinking and...
Hit D-> twice.
 
....and if you have room in the panel, why not keep the Loran in there? It does not weigh much, and it is a nice and independent nav source.

I love the way the short-wing Cherokees fly; I envy you yours, and I know she will inspire much lyrical prose.
 
You seem to have the exact same love of your airplane as I do for mine!!
 
Welcome back, Toby. I'm glad you and your sky partner are getting along so well.

terry
 
Toby said:
Did I mention that I love my airplane?
Click to expand...
Toby, I'm glad to see how much you're enjoying your new airplane!!! Life is good!!!!

It's nice to have you writing to us/for us again. :yes:
 
Toby said:
..... It's an area I love. And I just traced the outlines of the islands and peninsulas with my airplane, nice and slow at around 1500 feet. It was like cutting out paper dolls. A little left, a little right, a dip, a tuck, a pointed place, a sharp turn, a swooping semicircle.

After I traced all the islands I headed back into the sunset.
Click to expand...

Sounds fantastic, great to hear from you! Enjoy your plane!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ah, I have an M1 they are great, as accurate and reliable as a GPS. Probably the database is out of date but they used to upgrade them for 200bucks. Jot this down:

Turn the LH outer knob til the APT (airport) light is illuminated.
Hit CRSR (cursor) to get the ID flashing.
Dial up the airport you want, (the outer LH knob now moves between the three figures, the inner LH knob scrolls the available letters and numbers) No 'K' needed, as in KDFW just "DFW".
Hit CRSR again to stop the blinking and...
Hit D-> twice.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Dave. I'll see if I can get the update. I probably shouldn't have ordered that GPS yet! Everyone kept saying Loran isn't used anymore, so I didn't think it was anything much, but it's really nice.

The seller removed the ADF because he never used it, and now it's in the trunk of my car. But I'm going to put that back in as well. You never know.
 
Toby said:
It's a Northstar M1. It looks pretty easy, but I don't want to be fiddling with it while I'm flying when I should be looking outside. I see you can program in hundreds and hundreds of airports and see what course to take there and how many nautical miles away they are. The big knob seems to highlight about 8 main pages.

I ordered a GPS, anyway. It should be here tomorrow.
Click to expand...


I have an M1. I'll look for the manual and copy it for you. Keep the Loran when you install the GPS. It gives you kind of a multiple DME.

Sounds like you are having fun with the airplane. :yes:
 
Carol said:
I have an M1. I'll look for the manual and copy it for you. Keep the Loran when you install the GPS. It gives you kind of a multiple DME.

Sounds like you are having fun with the airplane. :yes:
Click to expand...
Carol, thank you!

Oh, I flew a Commanche the other day and thought of you. Great airplane, kind of the powerful big cousin to my Cherokee.
 
Toby;

A very nice story. I am so glad you ared having fun with your plane. Reminds me of how I felt and still do every time I go flying. It must be the "Walter Mitty" in me.


Thank you for share and welcome back

John J
 
Toby said:
So I preflighted her and went up for a sunset flight. I headed out east to nowhere in particular, ....until I came to the area between the forks that's filled with little islands, peninsulas, and other odd-shaped pieces of land. It's an area I love.
Click to expand...
Me, too, Toby! I love the waters around Shelter Island, Great and Little Peconic Bays. Beautiful country!

Sounds like you are having fun!

-Skip
 
Last edited:
Toby,

I see that several folks are suggesting that you keep the Loran even if you later want to get a GPS....note that there is a loran to gps upgrade path supported for the M1...the replacement unit (IIRC an M3 GPS) fits in the same spot...the GPS antenna is designed to go where the loran antenna was located. The M3 isn't the most modern GPS as it doesn't have a moving map, it basically looks identical to the M1. There are display units that connect to the M3 to provide the moving map capability. I just saw one in Trade a Plane that looked interesting. It fits in the VSI slot, along the left side there appears to be an indicator for the vertical speed and the rest of the display provides moving mape with terrain warning. I saw it listed in advertising for two different avionics shops. One was selling it for $1000 less than the other, which was also interesting.

Len
 
Len Lanetti said:
Toby,

I see that several folks are suggesting that you keep the Loran even if you later want to get a GPS....note that there is a loran to gps upgrade path supported for the M1...the replacement unit (IIRC an M3 GPS) fits in the same spot...the GPS antenna is designed to go where the loran antenna was located. The M3 isn't the most modern GPS as it doesn't have a moving map, it basically looks identical to the M1. There are display units that connect to the M3 to provide the moving map capability. I just saw one in Trade a Plane that looked interesting. It fits in the VSI slot, along the left side there appears to be an indicator for the vertical speed and the rest of the display provides moving mape with terrain warning. I saw it listed in advertising for two different avionics shops. One was selling it for $1000 less than the other, which was also interesting.

Len
Click to expand...
Would this be considered an IFR GPS (either with or without the moving map accessory)? And if I had this, I could get rid of the ADF, right?

I am getting a portable GPS anyway, but I understand that's not certified for IFR flying.
 
Great, Toby!

I think I tol' ya it would take a long time for the grin to go away, if ever.

I remember I once sat in the plane and looked at the (wrong) plaque under the door handle and thought "That's mine. It's all MINE. I can't believe it."
 
Welcome back Toby!!
I have the M-3 GPS in my A-36 and it's IFR enroute and approach certified. Mine is coupled to an Argus 5000 moving map. The gps is certified without the moving map, but the moving map gives good situational awareness. However, I have a Garmin 196 in the A-36 and rely on it more than the Argus 5000. Better display and easier to see in strong daylight.
I have heard that the group supporting the M-3 has changed and it takes longer to get them fixed is they break. It's a great GPS; easy to use. At some time, I'd upgrade mine, but one could still use one for awhile.
Glad your'e enjoying your new bird.

Best,

Dave
 
Toby said:
Would this be considered an IFR GPS (either with or without the moving map accessory)? And if I had this, I could get rid of the ADF, right?

I am getting a portable GPS anyway, but I understand that's not certified for IFR flying.
Click to expand...

Toby,

It appears from the naming convention used for the M3 in the Eastern Avionics Guide that the unit is approved stand alone for approaches (see web link for pictures and descriptions of a bunch of panel mount GPS units). There is a specific TSO number that the unit must be certified to be used for approaches (note that there are other TSO numbers for using to navigate other than on approach under IFR as well). I don't have those numbers at my finger tips but I'm sure someone will chime in. You will want to cross check to determine the capabilities of any panel mount GPS receiver.

http://www.avionix.com/gps.html

RE ADF...no one insists that you have an ADF unless you need the ADF to navigate or fly an approach. So, if you fly into an airport that only has an ADF approach (no overlay GPS approach) then you probably wouldn't want to remove the ADF. I'm thinking that condition is getting more rare each day.

RE Handheld GPS...your understanding is correct in that a handheld GPS can not be your primary means of navigation under IFR. Note that I think it makes a good back up in the case of failure that takes out your panel mounted nav equipment and to provide situational awarness if you don't have a panel mount GPS.

Len
 
Toby,

Long time; no talk. Welcome back! I always enjoyed your no-nonsense, level-headed commentary. :)
 
Len Lanetti said:
Toby,

It appears from the naming convention used for the M3 in the Eastern Avionics Guide that the unit is approved stand alone for approaches (see web link for pictures and descriptions of a bunch of panel mount GPS units). There is a specific TSO number that the unit must be certified to be used for approaches (note that there are other TSO numbers for using to navigate other than on approach under IFR as well). I don't have those numbers at my finger tips but I'm sure someone will chime in. You will want to cross check to determine the capabilities of any panel mount GPS receiver.

http://www.avionix.com/gps.html

RE ADF...no one insists that you have an ADF unless you need the ADF to navigate or fly an approach. So, if you fly into an airport that only has an ADF approach (no overlay GPS approach) then you probably wouldn't want to remove the ADF. I'm thinking that condition is getting more rare each day.

RE Handheld GPS...your understanding is correct in that a handheld GPS can not be your primary means of navigation under IFR. Note that I think it makes a good back up in the case of failure that takes out your panel mounted nav equipment and to provide situational awarness if you don't have a panel mount GPS.

Len
Click to expand...
I didn't realize there were different levels of qualification for GPS's, depending on what you are doing with them.

At first I was going to put the ADF back into the plane. Then my mechanic said to me, what are you going to do with it, listen to the radio? I said, don't I need it for my IR? He said no, and he wanted to take the whole antenna off and close up the spot on the roof. I was all set to do that, and then someone told me there are "lots" of airports where you still need an ADF. So I decided to put it back in. I guess I will look into the cost of the Loran/GPS upgrade and decide whether to go that route. There are a lot of things I'd like to do with what's on the panel. First I want to live with what I have for a few months and then....prioritize. ;)
 
mikea said:
Great, Toby!

I think I tol' ya it would take a long time for the grin to go away, if ever.

I remember I once sat in the plane and looked at the (wrong) plaque under the door handle and thought "That's mine. It's all MINE. I can't believe it."
Click to expand...
I have that thought and feeling all the time. All day at work. I just can't believe it! It's a powerful feeling.

I'm going out flying again today with a friend. That is, after I go home, go around the back and climb up on the air conditioning unit and fall through my daughter's bedroom window head first onto her music stand because I locked myself out of the house this morning, being so distracted by this pesky little airplane.
 
RobertGerace said:
Toby,

Long time; no talk. Welcome back! I always enjoyed your no-nonsense, level-headed commentary. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you, Bob!
 
Toby said:
I didn't realize there were different levels of qualification for GPS's, depending on what you are doing with them.

At first I was going to put the ADF back into the plane. Then my mechanic said to me, what are you going to do with it, listen to the radio? I said, don't I need it for my IR? He said no, and he wanted to take the whole antenna off and close up the spot on the roof. I was all set to do that, and then someone told me there are "lots" of airports where you still need an ADF. So I decided to put it back in. I guess I will look into the cost of the Loran/GPS upgrade and decide whether to go that route. There are a lot of things I'd like to do with what's on the panel. First I want to live with what I have for a few months and then....prioritize. ;)
Click to expand...

Toby,

It's getting to the point where it's either-or on GPS or ADF. If you have an approach-certified GPS, I don't think I'd spend any money at all to reinstall an ADF. The few airports that only have an NDB approach generally also have a GPS approach, and the number that don't is diminishing quickly.

If you still had the ADF in the plane, I'd say leave it, but if you have to spend money on it, you're probably better off putting the money into an approach-certified GPS.

Your only limitation will be that you will need to file an alternate that doesn't require the GPS if you don't have an ADF. In my mind, that's a very small penalty compared to the additional capabilities you get (like substitute for DME, for example).

I pulled the ADF 4 years ago, I've done a lot of IFR since then, and it's really never been a problem.

Welcome back!
 
Toby said:
I didn't realize there were different levels of qualification for GPS's, depending on what you are doing with them.

At first I was going to put the ADF back into the plane. Then my mechanic said to me, what are you going to do with it, listen to the radio? I said, don't I need it for my IR? He said no, and he wanted to take the whole antenna off and close up the spot on the roof. I was all set to do that, and then someone told me there are "lots" of airports where you still need an ADF. So I decided to put it back in. I guess I will look into the cost of the Loran/GPS upgrade and decide whether to go that route. There are a lot of things I'd like to do with what's on the panel. First I want to live with what I have for a few months and then....prioritize. ;)
Click to expand...

Toby,

Take out the ADF and close up the hole where the antenna is. Use an en route and approach certified GPS. You won't be sorry. There may be "lots" of airports with only an NDB approach but what do you think the chances are that you are headed to one in IMC? I mean, really. I have NEVER had to even think about doing an NDB approach since my checkride.
 
Len Lanetti said:
There are display units that connect to the M3 to provide the moving map capability. I just saw one in Trade a Plane that looked interesting. It fits in the VSI slot, along the left side there appears to be an indicator for the vertical speed and the rest of the display provides moving mape with terrain warning. I saw it listed in advertising for two different avionics shops. One was selling it for $1000 less than the other, which was also interesting.
Click to expand...
see www.aspenavionics.com for more info.

Interesting little unit, but on the expensive side if all you want is a moving map. I looked at this for my Citabria, as my panel has only a King 135 (with a useless map) but decided I'd be better off simply upgrading my handheld GPS.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I'd be better off simply upgrading my handheld GPS.
Click to expand...

For me, for now my handheld does the trick.

While I was looking at the avioncs ads I noticed that the new Garmin handheld 396 which includes weather capability along with everthing else is about half the price of an installed Garmin GDL69 XM weather receiver. I thought that was a little nut-so. Somebody should create an interlink from the 396 to panel mount equipment for the XM information.

Len
 
Carol said:
Toby,

Take out the ADF and close up the hole where the antenna is. Use an en route and approach certified GPS. You won't be sorry. There may be "lots" of airports with only an NDB approach but what do you think the chances are that you are headed to one in IMC? I mean, really. I have NEVER had to even think about doing an NDB approach since my checkride.
Click to expand...
Carol,

I would still have to buy an M3 and have it installed. Isn't that going to cost $$,$$$? It's not happening this year....

What kinds of approaches do most airports have? I don't know yet what there's a lot of or a little of out there, so I don't have a sense of what kinds of approaches I'd be doing and in what conditions. I don't plan to fly in IMC, except maybe climbing through a cloud layer to sunshine.

First I ordered my airplane cover without the ADF antenna opening. Then I called them back and ordered it WITH the opening. So I guess I'm getting the opening. But it will have velcro to close it.
 
Toby said:
Carol,

I would still have to buy an M3 and have it installed. Isn't that going to cost $$,$$$? It's not happening this year....

What kinds of approaches do most airports have? I don't know yet what there's a lot of or a little of out there, so I don't have a sense of what kinds of approaches I'd be doing and in what conditions. I don't plan to fly in IMC, except maybe climbing through a cloud layer to sunshine.

First I ordered my airplane cover without the ADF antenna opening. Then I called them back and ordered it WITH the opening. So I guess I'm getting the opening. But it will have velcro to close it.
Click to expand...
M3s are pretty "cheap". Installed and signed off, about $1800. But then you're "/U" legal, too.
 
Toby said:
It's a Northstar M1. It looks pretty easy, but I don't want to be fiddling with it while I'm flying when I should be looking outside. I see you can program in hundreds and hundreds of airports and see what course to take there and how many nautical miles away they are. The big knob seems to highlight about 8 main pages.

I ordered a GPS, anyway. It should be here tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I've got an operator's manual for a M1 and it's yours if you want it.
 
lancefisher said:
I've got an operator's manual for a M1 and it's yours if you want it.
Click to expand...
OK! Thanks, Lance. I'll send you my address and will pay for postage.
 
I highly recommend a panel mounted GPS as a panel upgrade. The versatility that goes with having an IFR GPS, even a fairly cheap one like a KLN 89B or a KLN 94, is really useful. With it, you no longer need the ADF. Two decent nav/coms and a KLN94 is a potent combination for navigation, and fairly simple to learn to use.

A moving map moves situational awareness, even in VFR, up to a whole new level.

The plane looks great, BTW. Enjoy. Many of us who are still in the rental fleet are green with envy.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
I highly recommend a panel mounted GPS as a panel upgrade. The versatility that goes with having an IFR GPS, even a fairly cheap one like a KLN 89B or a KLN 94, is really useful. With it, you no longer need the ADF. Two decent nav/coms and a KLN94 is a potent combination for navigation, and fairly simple to learn to use.

A moving map moves situational awareness, even in VFR, up to a whole new level.

The plane looks great, BTW. Enjoy. Many of us who are still in the rental fleet are green with envy.

Jim G
Click to expand...
There is a lot to think about when I get around to upgrading. I liked the arrangement in the 172 I was flying. He had a GNS 430, which had a good radio built in. Another nice thing was the master avionics switch. In my airplane, I have to turn everything on and off individually.

I have to pay off my new car before I do anything new with the airplane. Only 33 payments to go!
 
Toby said:
Carol,

I would still have to buy an M3 and have it installed. Isn't that going to cost $$,$$$? It's not happening this year....

What kinds of approaches do most airports have? I don't know yet what there's a lot of or a little of out there, so I don't have a sense of what kinds of approaches I'd be doing and in what conditions. I don't plan to fly in IMC, except maybe climbing through a cloud layer to sunshine.

First I ordered my airplane cover without the ADF antenna opening. Then I called them back and ordered it WITH the opening. So I guess I'm getting the opening. But it will have velcro to close it.
Click to expand...


Get a set of approach plates for your area and look and see how many have only NDB approaches.

Also, you can fly an NDB approach with an en route and approach certified GPS.

My opinion is that you are just not going to be in a situation where the ADF is a critical component in your panel. I could be wrong. I sometimes am. :)
 
Toby said:
Another nice thing was the master avionics switch. In my airplane, I have to turn everything on and off individually.
Click to expand...

Think of the individual switches as redundancy. With the single avionics master switch what do you do if the switch goes bad. Of course, there is a way to wire another switch for redundancy but in practice I've never seen that done on older aircraft retrofitted with a avaionics master switch.

Len
 
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