Old Time Navigation

Ron Levy said:
Ummmm....no. In the 1980's, they had T-43's with a small hole in the rioof through which a periscopic sextant could be thrust. BTDT. The really ancient trainers with a dome were long gone when I went through USAF cel nav training in Spring 1980.
Click to expand...

You're right!
 
JimNtexas said:
In my class I flew the T-29 on its very last training sortie, and completed the training in the still new-smelling T-43 (B737).

Both had periscopic sextants. An advantage to having sextant ports in a high altitude airplane is that you can connect a hose to them and have a great vacuum cleaner.
Click to expand...
Correct me if I'm wrong (we had cast-off USAF T-29's for long-range nav training in VT-10 at Pensacola but didn't do any cel nav so I never paid attention to this issue there), the T-29's had the sextant ports the same as the T-43, not domes. Correct? If that's true, I think you'd have to go back at least to the 60's and maybe much earlier to find domes rather than ports in the roof of a USAF navigator training aircraft.

And I'll save the story of the Iranian nav student and the sun filter for another day.
 
Last edited:
denverpilot said:
I learned this week that these were called "astrodomes".

Not to be confused with Houston's twin obsessions with Astronauts and Football. ;)
Click to expand...

Sadly, the Houston Astrodome, once marketed as the 8th wonder of the world, is slowly decaying due to lack of use and maintenance.

I remember taking a guided tour of the place about a year after it opened.

Old and soon to be forgotten just like the old style navigation.
 
Zeldman said:
Sadly, the Houston Astrodome, once marketed as the 8th wonder of the world, is slowly decaying due to lack of use and maintenance.

I remember taking a guided tour of the place about a year after it opened.

Old and soon to be forgotten just like the old style navigation.
Click to expand...

Astrodome is pretty old as well, it's probably pretty close to its design life limit.
 
Terry said:
How did Trans World Airline navigate from say, New York to London before the days of modern navigational aides?

What about Los Angles to Hawaii?
Click to expand...

Guy Murchie, a pioneering navigator for the first commercial transatlantic flights, writes about this in his book, Song of the Sky. This book not only explains the science of the navigation, it's a literary masterpiece. This is a book I believe that belongs on any pilot's bookshelf.

You can still find a few copies at Amazon.
 
Ron Levy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong (we had cast-off USAF T-29's for long-range nav training in VT-10 at Pensacola but didn't do any cel nav so I never paid attention to this issue there), the T-29's had the sextant ports the same as the T-43, not domes. Correct? .
Click to expand...

The T-29 as used in 1975 had sextant ports. We did our DR and day celestial training in them. I'm pretty sure that there had once been an astrodome aft of the pilots but IIRC those had all been removed.

I do recall Frankenstein looking old radar sets, a drift meter, and a little trap door for dropping flares, but we didn't use those.

In the T-43 we had a ground mapping radar, sextant ports, doppler navigation system, a Litton INS, and a semi-automatic Loran. The radar was really good, we flew 'low levels' (1000agl) in them. The T-43 had extra gas tanks and could fly to Hawaii. A few of the first classes got to go there, but the USAF quickly decided that a real ocean crossing was too scary so we flew our overwater legs up the west coast to Alaska and back.
 
JimNtexas said:
The T-29 as used in 1975 had sextant ports. We did our DR and day celestial training in them. I'm pretty sure that there had once been an astrodome aft of the pilots but IIRC those had all been removed.

I do recall Frankenstein looking old radar sets, a drift meter, and a little trap door for dropping flares, but we didn't use those.
Click to expand...
We were actually taught how to use the drift meter on those T-29 rides in VT-10, but didn't really use them much beyond that. No flares dropped, however, and the instructors only demo'd the radar.
 
In '83 we still planned the Mather to Hawaii flight, but tempered in winter with a back up plan. A C-141 would launch from Travis and report back over water winds from SFO to mid point before the T-43 would launch. The instructors and pilots would decide if the headwinds would allow the trip. If not then plan B.

My class was feet wet north of SFO then cell / pressure pattern to an ocean point and turn back for landfall near LAX and landed at Norton.
 
BillTIZ said:
In '83 we still planned the Mather to Hawaii flight, but tempered in winter with a back up plan. A C-141 would launch from Travis and report back over water winds from SFO to mid point before the T-43 would launch. The instructors and pilots would decide if the headwinds would allow the trip. If not then plan B.

My class was feet wet north of SFO then cell / pressure pattern to an ocean point and turn back for landfall near LAX and landed at Norton.
Click to expand...

What sights did they teach you to work?
 
Zeldman said:
Sadly, the Houston Astrodome, once marketed as the 8th wonder of the world, is slowly decaying due to lack of use and maintenance.

I remember taking a guided tour of the place about a year after it opened.

Old and soon to be forgotten just like the old style navigation.
Click to expand...


Yeah. My sis has been heavily involved in the group trying to renovate/save it as something new. Haven't asked her how that's going. She's a restorative/historical architect. She got all the brains in the family. ;)
 
RotorRambler said:
Guy Murchie, a pioneering navigator for the first commercial transatlantic flights, writes about this in his book, Song of the Sky. This book not only explains the science of the navigation, it's a literary masterpiece. This is a book I believe that belongs on any pilot's bookshelf.



You can still find a few copies at Amazon.
Click to expand...


Which reminds me, I leant this book out during the POA book club days. I think it got passed through a few people but I haven't known of its whereabouts in years. In fact I had forgotten about it until I read this post.
 
RotorRambler said:
Guy Murchie...
Click to expand...

Wow - tickle those neurons, will you!

I remember being quite enamored with "Music of the Spheres" back in the 70's.

51YFkClBJsL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Thanks for the memories!
 
Everskyward said:
Wow. Good detective work now who is this?



Is that as misspelling of Ted's wife Laurie? Or some one else? That was back in 2007, almost the dark ages...
Click to expand...

Yes, we do! Did a little more detective work! It was a misspelling; Ted's wife Laurie has it. She's a bit busy with the twins to reply here, but I'll PM you...
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
What sights did they teach you to work?
Click to expand...

Day sun lines and at night three star fixes, hand computed using paper forms and HO 249. The night cell check ride required five fixes in a bit under four hours.
 
JimNtexas said:
Day sun lines and at night three star fixes, hand computed using paper forms and HO 249. The night cell check ride required five fixes in a bit under four hours.
Click to expand...

Plus do it in Grid Nav, with North Star heading shots after each turn.
Everything was hand computed, no Texas Instrument calculator program until after you were qualified.

Those night rides were all 3 star/planet LOP shots.
Don't forget the detailed NAV log to go with the cell computations.

Then learn to do it in a Buff and keep the astro tracker locked on for a heading reference.
 
Have any of us USAF navigators gotten the FAA navigator rating? I've periodically toyed with idea just to add to my rating list for bragging rights.
 
Witmo said:
Have any of us USAF navigators gotten the FAA navigator rating? I've periodically toyed with idea just to add to my rating list for bragging rights.
Click to expand...
Last I knew, you had to do it while you were still on active USAF flight status. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd like to do it.
 
When I started nav school in 1975 at the very first class session we were told that Flying Tigers had just retired the very last professional civil navigator in the United States.

Shortly thereafter I ordered a home computer kit (700 1975 dollars!) because I knew that whatever I did in the Air Force, I wasn't going to be a civil navigator, so I figured I'd program computers when I got out. Which I did 20 years latter.

I worried more about the night cel checkride in the T-43 than any other checkride I ever took, civil or military. That's because for the first and only time time I 'pinked' the last night cel practice ride. I just was not able to accomplish six accurate three star fixes in less than four hours.

When at the checkride they told us we only had to do five fixes I breathed a half-sigh of relief. Five was hard enough, but I pulled it off!! :)

Thank goodness I got selected for EWO school and later fighters!!!!

Years later an EC-130 nav let me shoot a night cel fix for him. His sextant had this cool digital averager. When he plotted it came out in Siberia or somewhere like that, so I felt kind of bad. :(

A few minutes later he came into the back to tell me he'd done the calculation wrong, and really I wasn't too far off. :)
 
Working a thee star running fix by hand in 40 minutes is a good effort, that's for sure. Did you have to use a plotting sheet and all?
 
Henning said:
Working a thee star running fix by hand in 40 minutes is a good effort, that's for sure. Did you have to use a plotting sheet and all?
Click to expand...

We had to work the calculations by hand using a paper form, then plot what we hoped would be a small triangle on a regular TPC or ONC chart, using plotter and dividers.
 
Everskyward said:
Wow. Good detective work now who is this?



Is that as misspelling of Ted's wife Laurie? Or some one else? That was back in 2007, almost the dark ages...
Click to expand...
Look what made it home! I wondered what the package in my mailbox was when I retrieved it at 0200 this morning. Thanks Laurie and Troy!





I like these illustrations which are on the inside covers and interspersed throughout the book.

 
Henning said:
Astrodome is pretty old as well, it's probably pretty close to its design life limit.
Click to expand...

The citizens of Harris County are still paying on the bonds financing the improvements that Bud Adams demanded in order not to move the Oilers (the first time...)..
 
Doggtyred said:
The citizens of Harris County are still paying on the bonds financing the improvements that Bud Adams demanded in order not to move the Oilers (the first time...)..
Click to expand...

Why do taxpayers pay for private profits? Paying millions of dollars for infrastructure for an advertising agency? Really?:dunno:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top