Old guy, jet pilot - Part Trois

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
Ok, I've got a Temporary Aiman Certificate in my wallet, and it says in Part XII "LR-JET." I have a friggin type rating in a jet. I spent the last 15 days in Orlando, FL at SimCom and went through mental highs and lows that I didn't realize I had in me. It was mentally and physically draining.

However, after dozens of approaches, almost all to minimums or less, about half with only one engine, engine failures in all phases of flight, mind numbing gound school, etc., I passed the check ride this morning. Whew.

Picture is me and my support pilot (and I was his) in the Lear 35A Level C sim. He is a Purple Board member and also got his type this morning.
 

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Lance, that is positively awesome! Congrats!
 
Congrats, Lance.

What are the round things held up by straps behind each pilot station?

-Skip
 
Crew oxygen masks. We used them frequently for our emergency decents after depressurization.:yikes:
 
Hey, one question. I assume this was your first jet type rating... did you do takeoffs and landings in the real airplane, or did you do it all in the sim?

Did you have enough time to avoid the limitation (IIRC 25 hours supervised PIC) if you do the initial type rating strictly in the sim?
 
That is really cool. Congratulations!!!!!
 
Man, Lance, if you weren't such a good guy, I hate your guts!

Nice work; there is hope for us old farts yet.
 
TMetzinger said:
Hey, one question. I assume this was your first jet type rating... did you do takeoffs and landings in the real airplane, or did you do it all in the sim?

Did you have enough time to avoid the limitation (IIRC 25 hours supervised PIC) if you do the initial type rating strictly in the sim?
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This is my first PIC type rating. 100% in the sim. This is allowed for Level C and D simulators. The sim is a LOT harder to fly than the real airplane. It's much more sensitive. If you can do all this stuff in the sim, the real thing is a piece of cake.

I need 25 hours of SOE (supervised operating experience). That means the other pilot has a LR-JET type and is current. Once I have those 25 hours I bring my logbook to a FSDO and will get a new certificate without the limitation.
 
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I got to see one unplanned but very interesting thing. I never crashed the sim, but I sat in on one sim session behind the pilots with the instructor. The pilot flying was in the right seat. He was given a V1 cut, which means one engine fails on take off between the point the plane is going too fast to stop on the runway but too slow to fly. He pulled up too much, and I got to see what a Vmc roll and crash looks like out the front window. Hard on the sim, but everybody goes home.

You guys doing multi training listen very carefully when your instructor talks about this. If you lose an engine and screw up, it aint pretty.
 
Lance F said:
I need 25 hours of SOE (supervised operating experience). That means the other pilot has a LR-JET type and is current. Once I have those 25 hours I bring my logbook to a FSDO and will get a new certificate without the limitation.
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Thanks! That's what I expected.
 
Congratulations Lance. :thumbsup:

First type rating is special like your first solo. Mine was also LR-JET.
 
Congrats Lance. I can't believe it was 15 days. You have to really feel on top of that machine after all that. Three days at SIMCOM completely does me in.

Best,

Dave
 
Congrats! So does this mean that you'll be borrowing the Jet for travelling to PoA flyins now???
 
lance - congrats! was this also your ATP ride?
 
Lance that is awesome!!! Congrats, whats your support pilots name on purple? Lure home over to the blue side LOL .

contrats again !!
 
Nice. Very nice. Congrats!
 
Great work Lance!! Very cool. And here I was excited about getting to spend a half hour or so in Delta's 767-300ER sim Friday night.
 
Lance F said:
I got to see one unplanned but very interesting thing. I never crashed the sim, but I sat in on one sim session behind the pilots with the instructor. The pilot flying was in the right seat. He was given a V1 cut, which means one engine fails on take off between the point the plane is going too fast to stop on the runway but too slow to fly. He pulled up too much, and I got to see what a Vmc roll and crash looks like out the front window. Hard on the sim, but everybody goes home.

You guys doing multi training listen very carefully when your instructor talks about this. If you lose an engine and screw up, it aint pretty.
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Lance that's awesome! Congrats to you! Is it more dificult to get a Lear to do a vmc roll seeing as the trust line us positioned so close to the center? Or is the thrust/weight ratio just that high? The Lear is pretty overpowered right?
 
Danos said:
Lance that's awesome! Congrats to you! Is it more dificult to get a Lear to do a vmc roll seeing as the trust line us positioned so close to the center? Or is the thrust/weight ratio just that high? The Lear is pretty overpowered right?
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It didn't look difficult at all to do the Vmc roll :eek:. It's still not centerline thrust and takes about 99% full rudder to keep the Lear straight at V2 (best single engine climb speed). That takes about 100# of leg force. If you don't do that, the plane yaws. The problem is speed. If you rotate too much and get below V2 there just isn't enough rudder no matter how hard you push. Vmca in the Lear 35A is 110 kts. You get slower than that and you're a lawn dart.

And thank you to everybody for your nice comments. Nothing feels better than kudos from fellow aviators (especially PoAers).
 
Very cool, Lance.

See? There is an upside to having your home field closed for two months! :)
 
Lance F said:
It didn't look difficult at all to do the Vmc roll :eek:. It's still not centerline thrust and takes about 99% full rudder to keep the Lear straight at V2 (best single engine climb speed). That takes about 100# of leg force. If you don't do that, the plane yaws. The problem is speed. If you rotate too much and get below V2 there just isn't enough rudder no matter how hard you push. Vmca in the Lear 35A is 110 kts. You get slower than that and you're a lawn dart.
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Wouldn't the tried and true method of surviving the onset of a VMC rollover in a piston twin work in the Lear, e.g. reduce thrust on the good engine and unload until roll/yaw control is adequate ? Of course that's assuming the response is quick enough to be effective, I suspect that once it starts to go it rolls pretty rapidly.
 
Not Lance, but...

Normally I would say yes it would. But this was a V1 cut and by definition very close to the ground. Given that situation, I seriously doubt a recovery would have been possible. I think the best possible outcome would have been power to idle and crash straight ahead, but damn, that stuff happens fast.
 
Hmm... I recall that reducing power worked as I approached VMC in the air. Not sure what would happen when VMC was actually reached and the uncontrollable yaw/roll action starts. Given time and altitude to recover, probably be ok, but shortly after takeoff while still barely above the runway.... ouch.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not Lance, but...

Normally I would say yes it would. But this was a V1 cut and by definition very close to the ground. Given that situation, I seriously doubt a recovery would have been possible. I think the best possible outcome would have been power to idle and crash straight ahead, but damn, that stuff happens fast.
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I thought the whole idea behind V1 is that the plane has been certified to be able to continue on one beyond that speed.
 
gismo said:
I thought the whole idea behind V1 is that the plane has been certified to be able to continue on one beyond that speed.
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That is true, Lance. But you have to maintain V1. If through poor technique one lets the speed get too slow, he will be behind the power curve and will have no choice but to lower the nose to gain that speed. If he does not have the altitude to recover, the ground will reach up and smite him. Airspeed control is very critical. If the speed drops below V1, things can go very bad very fast.

At my place of employment if you lose altitude on a V1 cut it earns you a retest of that maneuver, or training to proficiency.

In the scenario being discussed, a V1 cut and VMC rollover are being combined. If one is getting slow enough that low to the ground, as I said, I don't think a recovery is possible.


I guess what I am asking is "What's your point?"
 
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Greg, please correct my memory...

Isn't the procedure with a V1 cut to rotate at Vr, then accelerate on one to V2 (safety speed) and then maintain V2 to some minimum altitude?

Certainly, you shouldn't be going below V1 or down past that to Vmc. I get the impression (having only done this stuff rarely in sims) that for Lance's LR-JET, that Vmc is not that far below V1 or rotation speed, and that speed decays rapidly when the nose is raised, so even if you call V1, then rotate, if you overrotate (or even add the drag from being uncoordinated), you can lose speed quite quickly and hit Vmc and then it's all over.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is true, Lance. But you have to maintain V1. If through poor technique one lets the speed get too slow, he will be behind the power curve and will have no choice but to lower the nose to gain that speed. If he does not have the altitude to recover, the ground will reach up and smite him. Airspeed control is very critical. If the speed drops below V1, things can go very bad very fast.

At my place of employment if you lose altitude on a V1 cut it earns you a retest of that maneuver, or training to proficiency.

In the scenario being discussed, a V1 cut and VMC rollover are being combined. If one is getting slow enough that low to the ground, as I said, I don't think a recovery is possible.


I guess what I am asking is "What's your point?"
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I guess my "point" is that Lance F made it sound like dropping below V2 guaranteed a loss of control with the comment:

"If you rotate too much and get below V2 there just isn't enough rudder no matter how hard you push. Vmca in the Lear 35A is 110 kts. You get slower than that and you're a lawn dart."

...and I was wondering why you couldn't just reduce the AoA and/or thrust a bit (I keep hearing how jets have beaucoup thrust available) and remain above Vmca albeit with a reduced climb. Worst case in that event would seem to be a climb angle similar to many light piston aircraft.

This is all coming from the fact that I've been told many times that in jets (especially rockets like the Lears) it's much easier to handle an engine loss on takeoff than in a piston twin yet Lance's story and some of the responses to it seem to indicate that the loss of an engine right at V1 isn't likely to have a favorable outcome.
 
gismo said:
This is all coming from the fact that I've been told many times that in jets (especially rockets like the Lears) it's much easier to handle an engine loss on takeoff than in a piston twin yet Lance's story and some of the responses to it seem to indicate that the loss of an engine right at V1 isn't likely to have a favorable outcome.
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How fast the airplane is going to climb definitely depends on how hot it is and how heavy you are. In any case, in a small piston airplane, if the engine fails on the ground you are taught to stop, not continue. In the Lear (unlike some other jets like the Hawker) it takes a significant amount of rudder to keep the airplane straight on the runway until Vr, and like Lance says, if you overrotate you can get too slow. Still, I've been to training quite a few times and have never seen anyone do a Vmc roll on a V1 cut so there is a fairly good chance that you can survive one.

Edit: Now that I've said that I'm going to go right out and Vmc roll the sim because this is V1 cut day in the CE-680 sim...
 
Cool Lance, congrats!
 
The spread between VR and V1 is often negligable, especially in straight-wing and or lightly loaded airplanes. As a result, it all happens at once, and you need to know and be able to maintain the prescribed pitch angle to make it work. Fortunately, once the sim is set up for the day's flying, the performance is very consistent.
TMetzinger said:
Greg, please correct my memory...

Isn't the procedure with a V1 cut to rotate at Vr, then accelerate on one to V2 (safety speed) and then maintain V2 to some minimum altitude?

Certainly, you shouldn't be going below V1 or down past that to Vmc. I get the impression (having only done this stuff rarely in sims) that for Lance's LR-JET, that Vmc is not that far below V1 or rotation speed, and that speed decays rapidly when the nose is raised, so even if you call V1, then rotate, if you overrotate (or even add the drag from being uncoordinated), you can lose speed quite quickly and hit Vmc and then it's all over.
Click to expand...
 
TMetzinger said:
Greg, please correct my memory...

Isn't the procedure with a V1 cut to rotate at Vr, then accelerate on one to V2 (safety speed) and then maintain V2 to some minimum altitude?
Click to expand...

Yup.

Certainly, you shouldn't be going below V1 or down past that to Vmc.
Click to expand...

This is true.

I get the impression (having only done this stuff rarely in sims) that for Lance's LR-JET, that Vmc is not that far below V1 or rotation speed, and that speed decays rapidly when the nose is raised, so even if you call V1, then rotate, if you overrotate (or even add the drag from being uncoordinated), you can lose speed quite quickly and hit Vmc and then it's all over.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that I don't have any light jet time. But on the heavy jets, at heavy weights, we shoot for a target pitch of 10 degrees nose up. That is ballpark for V2 at heavy weights. Any less and it won't climb and any more and the speed drops off, rather rapidly. Quite honestly I don't know what the difference in speed is between Vmc and V2.
 
Glad this got some interest. I didn't give all the details of this which may have led to some of the questions.
Keep in mind I was sitting behind the right seat and couldn't see his instruments, so I can't tell exactly what he did or didn't do and for all I know this may have been his first V1 cut.
I don't know what the V speeds were for them, but probably V1 - 122, Vr - 134, and V2 - 137. Vmca is 110. He may have rotated too early; he may have pitched up too much (9 1/2 deg is the goal) or both. In any case the situation deteriorated very quickly. It probably was less than 500' in the air when it rolled. I don't think any technique could have saved it. BTW, on the next one the guy performed about perfectly.
The instructors had no problem with staying on the runway (it was 10,000' long 8R@MIA) past Vr on a V1 cut. It was more important to stay on or parallel to the centerline. Better to be stable before rotating. As long as you're under the max tire speed of 182 it's no problem.
The Lear35 climbs great on one if you do it right. Even at MGTOW (18,300#) you're climbing at least 1,000fpm after getting the gear up.
 
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