ok to be overly cautious?

R

Rose2012

Pre-Flight
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
75
Display Name
Display name:
Rose2012
I'm not sure why, but I've always been very cautious when it comes to weather and I've become even more so since starting to fly again. Unfortunately my pilot friends are constantly questioning my decision to cancel for low ceilings, nearby thunderstorms, etc.
So I guess my question is, is it ok to be overly cautious on a local flight, especially a training flight that doesn't need to be completed? Or am I missing out on flying in different conditions? Obviously my knee-jerk answer to this is no, but judging by the amount of crap I get, I wonder if I'm being too conservative. Curious what others think.
 
You not only should, but you must fly at your comfort level, not other peoples comfort level. Ignore the reactions. This is supposed to be fun, keep it that way.

-John
 
It's just fine. It's your life on the line, after all, so you need to be comfortable.

On the other hand, perhaps you could use some mentoring on your go/no-go decisions. Discussing this with your CFI (if you're in training) or one of the CFIs or experienced pilots here (if you're not) can be beneficial.

I have about 8 pilots who I mentor - and by that I mean that they know they can give me a call whenever they want a second opinion about something. Often we'll talk about their planning for a flight. It's a lot like being a counselor... I don't want to lead them to an answer, but I want to facilitate them using their tools (or give them so new tools) so that they can make their own decision with confidence.

So... next time you're about to make a decision, why not post the weather conditions and your thought processes here, and I guarantee you'll get some feedback.
 
TMetzinger said:
So... next time you're about to make a decision, why not post the weather conditions and your thought processes here, and I guarantee you'll get some feedback.
Click to expand...

I will do that.

Most of the pilots I know are military pilots and have a completely different mindset as far as no-go decisions. Their decision making is really not very helpful in real life...
 
Never good to mess w/t-storms, period. Otherwise, an intrument rating is a great thing to have. Not only will you gain confidence and skill in your flying, you'll learn a bit more the weather.

With or w/o the IR, it's a good idea to learn as much as you can about weather. Here is a great place for pilots to learn about weather and how it may affect our flights: http://avwxworkshops.com/ I think it's well worth the money.

Otherwise, when it comes to flying, I live by the saying, "I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was flying, than to be flying wishing I was on the ground."

Never let someone else's flying preferences or comments make your decisions. Only you know what you can handle or what you're comfortable level is. Don't rush it.
 
Rose2012 said:
I will do that.

Most of the pilots I know are military pilots and have a completely different mindset as far as no-go decisions. Their decision making is really not very helpful in real life...
Click to expand...

But they also fly planes that have weather, range and altitude capabilities that ours don't.

We all have some level of phobia and are overly cautious on some aspect of flight. For some people, it's extensive preflights, others, terrain and density altitude. Me, I would say I'm more cautious than the next person over weather. If there is a hint of ice, I'm staying on the ground. Terrain? I'll take the Sierras and Rockies any day of the week over thunderstorms and ice.

(If you must dish me out a serving of thunderstorm or ice, please don't do it over the Sierras or Rockies, however.)
 
Rose2012 said:
I will do that.

Most of the pilots I know are military pilots and have a completely different mindset as far as no-go decisions. Their decision making is really not very helpful in real life...
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Somewhere in here there's a thread on Risk Management or similar topic where I've shared my "scorecard" that I use when flying. It assigns values for weather, the type of flight, the airplane, the pilot, etc, and when you total them up you get a result that helps guide your decision.

Everyone would build their values differently, but the advantage to the scorecard is that it does let you apply the same criteria consistently. It also can help remove ego and external pressures from the decision.
 
Rose2012 said:
my question is, is it ok to be overly cautious on a local flight, especially a training flight that doesn't need to be completed?
Click to expand...
What does that mean? What's the training flight about, and what, more precisely, is your concern regarding wx?

Basically, if you are a beginner (pre-solo), wx needs to be smooth and not threatening to you so you can focus on learning primary flight control.

Beyond that accomplishment, your training should include actual experience increasing in difficulty as you progress, so that you are prepared for the unexpected.

If you are a pilot, no matter how cautious you are, eventually, you will encounter unexpected unforcast wx conditions, and you should endeavor to experience as much bad wx with an experienced cfi as you can.

Again, of course, after you have gained a confident level of control in smoother conditions.

What's your situation?
 
My big cautions, so to speak are wind, clouds and visibility in that order. If the winds are strong I'm not going. If the ceilings are lower than 3,500 or if the visibility is below 6 miles I'm only staying local. That's my criteria right now as an approaching 100 hours Private pilot. If that makes me overly cautious, I'm ok with that. Rather be cautious then daring. I'm not getting paid to fly, I'm paying to fly and would rather have fun then take chances.
 
There is no such thing as too cautious about weather.

If you don't like it, don't fly in it. Especially recreationally.

Doesn't really need to go further than that.
 
I have one very important question for you.

Who is PIC?

The PIC makes the decisions about whether or not to fly. No one else. Period. It's your butt, not your "pilot friends'."
 
nosehair said:
What's your situation?
Click to expand...

I'm a very lapsed 700 hour CFI (with an instrument rating, obviously), who is working to get back into it.

Really my big problem is ceilings/rain. I can land in wind-no problem there. But I can't figure out how low of ceilings I can comfortably fly in because I'm used to, well, not having to worry about about being out of the clouds, legally and otherwise.

Recently its been the METAR saying 3500 feet, but I look out the window and it's definitely lower. So I can't tell if I can really maintain VFR, you know?
 
You have make certain your circle is always expanding(doesn't have to be quickly) if you are so cautious that your skill and opportunity creates an ever smaller circle you are doing it wrong and need to change or hang it up.
 
Rose2012 said:
I'm a very lapsed 700 hour CFI

But I can't figure out how low of ceilings I can comfortably fly in because I'm used to, well, not having to worry about about being out of the clouds, legally and otherwise.

Recently its been the METAR saying 3500 feet, but I look out the window and it's definitely lower. So I can't tell if I can really maintain VFR, you know?
Click to expand...
Aha! I know what you mean. How can you tell if you're 500 below, right? And who can tell 2000 horizontal? I've been trying 50 years and still doubt myself--but, here's some things I try.

When you looked out the window, and thought the cloud base was lower than the 3500 on the METAR, make your own estimate, and take-off and measure it. Do that constantly; every chance you get, make your estimate compared to the METAR.

When you were flying in clouds, and descended out at the base, you would have gained experience at estimating the 500 below, if you had been mindful of that. Now you can begin to make practice that estimate when you get the chance.

If, by some chance, totally due to unforecast weather conditions, and the sudden appearance of clouds in your vicinity on a vfr flight, note your altitude at cloud level and quickly descend 500' as you study the cloud mass to see what 500 below looks like.

These are some of the ways I have developed the best judgement that I can during my time, but it is up to the PIC to determine those distances. If your main concern is the legality, I don't know of any inspectors who would push the subject, except in a careless/reckless violation.

Just simply and honestly misjudging is not careless or reckless.
 
You make the decision and don't ever let anyone second-guess you. It's your life, not theirs up in that airplane.

There have been more than a few occasions where I've cancelled a flight because I didn't like the weather and it turned out to be the wrong decision - the weather was great!

On the other hand, there have been many more occasions, far exceeding the first category, where I've cancelled and it was the right thing to do. I've even cancelled lessons and a checkride when the CFI was insistent on going. He truly believed the weather was ok. He was wrong and was no longer my CFI for arguing with me about being wrong about the weather. All you had to do was look outside at the TStorms and wind.
 
I've cancelled flights from A to B due to ceilings or forecast precip, then just flown in the pattern or close to home if conditions there are legal. I'm not talking about sneaking out under a cell or through a thin fog layer or anything like that- I mean just flying locally when conditions are probably worse along your originally-intended route but still safe and legal at home (if barely so).

But the only good reason for "expanding your envelope" in such a way is to have some experience with marginal VFR in case you get stuck in it... regardless of how thorough your pre-flight weather analysis was. It happens.
Remember why you needed hood time to qualify for the VFR ticket? The intention is the same. But sometimes it's not a matter of turning around or descending in actual IMC; sometimes it's a matter of getting to that alternate in unexpected precip, haze, or low clouds. If all your training flights were under ideal conditions, you may be at a loss when the forecast turns out to be not perfectly accurate.

It's educational to have a good look at barely-legal VFR, and safe enough in the confines of the pattern or within sight of the home airport... much better to experience it that way the first time than when you are out on a cross-country flight. Same goes for turbulence- better to fly in some bumpy, gusty air on purpose, knowing you can scoot home in a few minutes if you don't like it, than to find yourself getting hammered far from home, low on fuel, and tired.

Will this envelope-stretching make you too bold, despite your common sense? Probably not. It's not about getting comfy taking off into conditions you avoided before; it's about building your foundation to deal with the unexpected after you've committed to a flight. We don't take off with an engine that's obviously ailing, but we practice engine-out emergencies, just in case. Same concept.

Still, staying on the ground will definitely guarantee no risks associated with flight, so a conservative choice is the safest pre-flight choice when going over the horizon. Don't let your peers pressure you. A motion to adjourn is always in order. :wink2:
 
Last edited:
As the general consensus has been, there's no such thing as being too cautious when your life is on the line.

On the other hand, getting into the 'stuff' more will get you more comfortable in those situations, and will help make you a better overall pilot. I was in the same situation, because all of my CFI's were newly minted and not far ahead of me. Finally, late in my commercial training, I got an older, much more experienced CFI. He got me out of my comfort zone (while obviously staying safe/legal). This meant flying with some higher winds, rain, and lower visibility, and dodging clouds (but all still VFR). Even if you don't ever flying in those conditions, I feel it's still a great idea to do some training to get you more comfortable. I see it similar to why we train private pilots with a bit of hood time. Even though they won't be flying like that, it makes them more comfortable and competent should that situation inadvertently arise.

All in all, safety first and fly within your comfort zone, but it would be a good idea to have an experienced pilot get you out of that zone every once in a while.
 
Once I got my ticket then I really started studying the weather more. Most of my flights were local for another 100 hrs. I flew with two experienced CFI's in marginal wx. I built our RV-10 and was sure glad for that additional wx experience with them. Now flying up to 4.5 hrs @ 160 KTAS we can experience some widely varying conditions. I start watching wx 3 days out and as the departure time nears I pay closer attention. I am vfr only and have my personal minimums and stick to them. If wx is marginal I always know which way to go for better conditions. I also try to figure out whether conditions are going to deteriorate, stabilize or improve. I have found it can go both ways, opposite of what is forecasted. I will plan my route over more airports, check notams, write down wx freqs, etc. Since I started flying with my family in Feb 2012, I have made several 180* turns. I don't feel any lesser of a pilot and my ego survived to fly another day. Start out slow and work your way up. If you start getting that "feeling" in your stomach(those that fly wx know what I mean), get out of it or land asap. We have waited anywhere from 2 hours to 4 days just this summer for better flying conditions. Pilots may ask about our wx decisions, but if you have studied, it will show in your answers. Some may want to learn from our decisions, some may just want to know we are being safe and others may just tell their buddies how crazy we are for flying in anything but perfect wx. Have fun learning. I still do every trip.
 
Even with an instrument rating, thunderstorms and ice are two things that we can't mess with.
 
flyingron said:
Even with an instrument rating, thunderstorms and ice are two things that we can't mess with.
Click to expand...

True but I've found those that lack in experience operating in IMC come to false conclusions as to what exact condition is a threat to our typical piston aircraft. Since they hear thunderstorms and ice are no go they falsely assume an instrument rating is of no utility, drives me crazy. :)
 
The default setting does not always provide the answer you need. They don't know what they don't know so they use whatever logic they can conjure up to support their position. And then they get huffy if somebody points out the truth.

jesse said:
True but I've found those that lack in experience operating in IMC come to false conclusions as to what exact condition is a threat to our typical piston aircraft. Since they hear thunderstorms and ice are no go they falsely assume an instrument rating is of no utility, drives me crazy. :)
Click to expand...
 
Rose2012 said:
I will do that.

Most of the pilots I know are military pilots and have a completely different mindset as far as no-go decisions. Their decision making is really not very helpful in real life...
Click to expand...

I get where your coming from, and I agree you should not use there risk management mindset as a model for you to follow.

However, there model is what allows them to take the risk to sacrifice there lives to protect all of our lives, so it's very helpful in real life. Just not so helpful in determining when you should fly :)
 
I, as a VFR pilot with over 400 hrs, I depend on my 3.5" X 4" piece of blue mat board I always have in my flight bag. If the sky does not match it in color, I don't go.

If the wind blows it out of my hand, I don't go.

This concludes todays lesson on how to read the weather.

-John
 
rottydaddy said:
If all your training flights were under ideal conditions, you may be at a loss when the forecast turns out to be not perfectly accurate.
Click to expand...

This is what has been running through my mind, especially since I've had so many people say, "You canceled for that?"

But I also feel like I'm being tested by my instructor as to my decision making skills, so I've been erring cautiously. I guess I haven't found that happy balance again.
 
Your thread title asks if it is okay to be overly cautious.

If you're overly cautious, then you're too cautious.

How much reading have you done on the subject of weather and flying? My advice is to read a lot, and then start flying on days that are less than perfect, using your knowledge and resources and thinking/looking ahead. Knowledge and awareness - you need both to be safe.

If you are up in the air, and ever realize you don't know what's going to happen next, or you do know what is going to happen next and you don't like it - exercise your 'out' (land at nearest airport, turn back for home, select alternate, whatever)
 
John Baker said:
This is supposed to be fun, keep it that way.

-John
Click to expand...

+1. If I'm not going to have fun on any particular flight I just don't go. Some enjoy flying in choppy winds, I don't. Since I just fly for fun when it gets to be work I just put it off for another day.
 
ClimbnSink said:
You have make certain your circle is always expanding(doesn't have to be quickly) if you are so cautious that your skill and opportunity creates an ever smaller circle you are doing it wrong and need to change or hang it up.
Click to expand...

I'm with Greg on this. While training for my IFR rating in north Florida we had a forecast for isolated thunderstorms. I proposed we cancel based on that forecast. My CFIs reply: if you want to fly in Florida in the summer you better get used to it.

He was not suggesting we dance with boomers up close and personal for IFR education. He was merely stating the obvious. My circle expanded that day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top