OH costs

Clark1961 said:
FRM is a zero timed engine - not new - not exactly just an overhaul - it's an engine built by the original manufacturer from new and used parts that meet new part specifications.
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Since factory remanufacture is an old term, that now equates to RE-MAN.

as the FAA directs in FAR 43.2

old terms die as hard as old wives tales.

But like the term says it has operated this many hours since the factory rebuilt it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Is the used from other engines or from the customers own engine?
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the factory has no "customer's own engine". They have bins of new and used parts. When engines come in they lose their identity as engines, they get disassembled and become inventory of used parts. The reason the factory can't list time in service is there no traceability of which core engine yielded a specific part.

That's not good or bad necessarily, it's just the nature of factory remanufacturing whether done by lycoming, chrysler, or john deere. But it seems to be a very different reality from what airplane owners expect even though equipment operators in every other industry seem to understand this intuitively.
 
Tom-D said:
With the sight of metal in the oil, A prudent owner would get it torn down and cleaned up before any type of metal destroys the crank and bearings.

We don't care what kind of metal it is.
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Depends on the size/amount of the metal whether it warrants a tear down or just oil change.
 
Tom-D said:
With the sight of metal in the oil, A prudent owner would get it torn down and cleaned up before any type of metal destroys the crank and bearings.

We don't care what kind of metal it is.
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Depends on the size/amount and composition of the metal whether it warrants a tear down, new jug and/or just oil change.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Is SFREM rebuilt, new, or overhauled?

I thought I understood these terms:sad:
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Since Factory Remanufactured. Obviously this term is still used widely.

If you are talking to an A&P he will understand you best if you use New; Remanufactured (to new limits); OH (major overhaul to service limits); Top to replacing all Jugs. Firewall forward is a term the industry made up not FAA but FWF means everything including hoses and props and if some idiot trys to tell you he is selling a FWF and it doesn't conform to this I would be very careful about anything else he tells me about his airplane.

I spelled it out pretty clearly in the first page and it got muddled but it is the way it is.

100% of the A&P instructors at my mechanics school preferred Reman to rebuilt. As half the goofy pilots and goofy CFI's oiut there interchange rebuilt/oh to mean the same thing.

Reman is to new limits.

OH is to serviceable limits.

New is new.

Its not that there is much leeway in what they are its that people use them improperly, both in advertising their aircraft for sale and talking about it.

I do not like using rebuilt as some people use rebuilt/oh as synonyms but ReManufactured says it all. To new limits.

Only factory or their designee can REMAN an engine and then only the engines that they manufacture new. Continental cannot remanufacture a Lycoming engine and vise versa.

I think what Tom is trying to get CapRon to understand is that any A&P can OH and engine to new limits (although not zero out the logs per faa authority).

Tom loves to cat and mouse a lot of issues so its hard to understand at first what he is doing.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Is the used from other engines or from the customers own engine?
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A mechanic I trust toured Lycoming and said they ONLY use the cases from First rebuilt (first time OH) engines coming in for a Reman engine. All other parts are new on a Reman.

If the case was rebuilt once, then it goes into the OH inventory pile not the Reman pile.

So Remans are very much more like a new engine than they are an OH engine that is why they are more expensive.
 
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There is no such thing as a remanufactured engine from either engine manufacturers.

nada, zip, the correct term is rebuilt.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Depends on the size/amount and composition of the metal whether it warrants a tear down, new jug and/or just oil change.
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do it your way, I'll save the crank if I can.

you'll not get an airworthy sign off from me with any metal in the oil.
 
Tom-D said:
do it your way, I'll save the crank if I can.

you'll not get an airworthy sign off from me with any metal in the oil.
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I want Tom to work on my motors..:yes:..

If a motor is making ANY metal then there is an issue and requires a teardown... I don't care how small the metal particles are.. NO filter can trap the microscopic ones, and they are the ones that will travel throughout the motor and eventually kill it..
 
Any one still reading this thread should read AC 43-11
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/248e88f9cbd60f9f862572b100634598/$FILE/AC%2043-11_CHG1.pdf

and fully understand the terms given there.

and note the date, yet there are instructors at schools and fsdo agents that still use the wrong terms in describing the standards that are required by 91.40-
 
I just got the 320 in my 172 overhauled. A 0 SMOH. The total bill including removing and replacing engine and the overhaul was $10,800. Everything was sent to ECI and yellowtagged. New ECI cylinders were put on. It is best to know someone. most shops would be over $20,000. This was done by a local engine builder/IA.
 
Tom-D said:
There is no such thing as a remanufactured engine from either engine manufacturers.

nada, zip, the correct term is rebuilt.
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Tom,

You made me smile. Again.

Dejuve remember a thread about "owner assisted annual?"

ROTGLMAO!
 
pigpenracing said:
I just got the 320 in my 172 overhauled. A 0 SMOH. The total bill including removing and replacing engine and the overhaul was $10,800. Everything was sent to ECI and yellowtagged. New ECI cylinders were put on. It is best to know someone. most shops would be over $20,000. This was done by a local engine builder/IA.
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The self employed A&P-IA is the best deal in Aviation.
 
Tom-D said:
do it your way, I'll save the crank if I can.

you'll not get an airworthy sign off from me with any metal in the oil.
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Are you saying that even small amounts of tiny partials of softer materials will so damage the bearings (IYO) that you will not repair the part, flush the system and oil change to keep the thing going?

This is definitely not what they are teaching in at least one A&P school.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Are you saying that even small amounts of tiny partials of softer materials will so damage the bearings (IYO) that you will not repair the part, flush the system and oil change to keep the thing going?

This is definitely not what they are teaching in at least one A&P school.
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Is there any metal in the engine that is softer than the Babbit in the main bearing insert ?

Contaminate that bearing and you will ruin the crank.

OBTW, I don't care what they teach in A&P school. Nothing is going to replace the metal that is floating around in the oil system, and it will not quit by its self.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Depends on the size/amount and composition of the metal whether it warrants a tear down, new jug and/or just oil change.
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The minute you find metal in the oil, from that point on, delay of a tear down can do nothing but cost more money in the long run.
 
Henning said:
The minute you find metal in the oil, from that point on, delay of a tear down can do nothing but cost more money in the long run.
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Depends on what the end replacement of the engine is. If you do a factory reman that basically takes the crank and case as-is, even if they're in bad shape, then maybe not.

But I would personally be doing investigation and repair immediately.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Depends on what the end replacement of the engine is. If you do a factory reman that basically takes the crank and case as-is, even if they're in bad shape, then maybe not.

But I would personally be doing investigation and repair immediately.
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A destroyed crank affects the core value pretty seriously best I recall.
 
Henning said:
A destroyed crank affects the core value pretty seriously best I recall.
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It's worth checking with the particular manufacturer for their particular policies. My recollection was that at least the folks with the gray paint was that if you traded in your core for a factory reman that you could pretty much turn in any kind of a basket case and it would be accepted. I also thought I saw an add from the gold engine folks saying similar.

But, I could be wrong, and it's worth checking into those things. In our case, it wouldn't make sense.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's worth checking with the particular manufacturer for their particular policies. My recollection was that at least the folks with the gray paint was that if you traded in your core for a factory reman that you could pretty much turn in any kind of a basket case and it would be accepted. I also thought I saw an add from the gold engine folks saying similar.

But, I could be wrong, and it's worth checking into those things. In our case, it wouldn't make sense.
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The only stipulation that I was informed of when I tried to use a 0-360A4M as core was they would not accept any engine that had been in a fire, or one that had been disassembled.
 
Tom-D said:
The only stipulation that I was informed of when I tried to use a 0-360A4M as core was they would not accept any engine that had been in a fire, or one that had been disassembled.
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That sounds right, because at that point the parts aren't usable. That said, I saw engines come in that had been on fire and had cylinders fallen off of them. It was pretty interesting to see engines that would come in, many of which clearly would have caused the pilot to need new pants.
 
Only if:

1. They're capable of providing the services needed by the owner.
2. They're worth a shlt.

It's a case-by-case situation on both counts.

Tom-D said:
The self employed A&P-IA is the best deal in Aviation.
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wabower said:
Only if:

1. They're capable of providing the services needed by the owner.
2. They're worth a shlt.

It's a case-by-case situation on both counts.
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They tend to be better deals for 140 owners than for 401 owners.

What a difference number ordering makes...
 
wabower said:
Only if:

1. They're capable of providing the services needed by the owner.
2. They're worth a shlt.

It's a case-by-case situation on both counts.
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Damn, you mean you'd have to really know the guy and get references, that's too much to ask any owner, it's just easier to ***** about the results, and tell every one about the raw deal you got.
 
Why is that drill any different than getting your teeth fixed?

Tom-D said:
Damn, you mean you'd have to really know the guy and get references, that's too much to ask any owner, it's just easier to ***** about the results, and tell every one about the raw deal you got.
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