Of mountain crashes and ELTs/EPIRBs

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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3Green
I don't remember hearing about this one, but looking at the picture these two young men are very lucky:

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/6337392.html

Reading how far apart the ELT 121.5 signals put the aircraft on the first two satellite passes makes you really think about getting one of the new 406MHz EPIRBS installed. They're not THAT expensive.

In fact, we're less than TWO YEARS away from NOAA's announced shut off date for satellite tracking of 121.5 MHz signals: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/121phaseout.pdf

Got plans to upgrade that ELT at next annual, before the rush? I wonder if there will be an availability issue.
 
Troy Whistman said:
I don't remember hearing about this one, but looking at the picture these two young men are very lucky:

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/6337392.html

Reading how far apart the ELT 121.5 signals put the aircraft on the first two satellite passes makes you really think about getting one of the new 406MHz EPIRBS installed. They're not THAT expensive.

In fact, we're less than TWO YEARS away from NOAA's announced shut off date for satellite tracking of 121.5 MHz signals: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/121phaseout.pdf

Got plans to upgrade that ELT at next annual, before the rush? I wonder if there will be an availability issue.
Click to expand...

I don't think the lack of SARSAT coverage will have much effect on the ability to locate TSO-C91 ELTs (121.5/243MHz) given that most older ELTs have such unstable frequency sources that the doppler shift method is horribly inaccurate. The really sucky part is that the least expensive TSO-C126 (406MHz) ELTs is still about $1000 plus antenna and installation (figure close to $1500 installed) and if you want the really best chance of being found you need one interfaced to your GPS and that will set you back around $4000. Considering that the actual CGS on these devices is likely around $100-150, you'd think someone would come out with something more reasonable. You can buy a (nearly worthless) C91a ELT for under $200 and a TSO-C126 model has about the same parts under the hood so once beyond the pretty significant certification costs, a $300-500 unit complete with GPS interface ought to be possible. Maybe in the interest of promoting GA safety, the FAA ought to offer "free" certification for anyone willing to sell an affordable new ELT.

Meanwhile, I got tired of waiting so I bought one of these for a bit more than $500:

http://www.equipped.com/terrafix_406gps_plb.htm

It has to be manually activated but it could be used outside the plane too. There is a slightly less expensive (under $500) older model available now too.
 

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lancefisher said:
if you want the really best chance of being found you need one interfaced to your GPS
Click to expand...


Tell me how these work.

Once you crash, if the wire that connects this to your gps is ripped out from damage to the airframe, will it transmit a non-specific signal like the 'old' ELT's? Or will it remember the last known position and transmit those coordinates?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Or will it remember the last known position and transmit those coordinates?
Click to expand...

Theoretically, that's how it works. Very cool, they can locate you down to the foot. That should speed up rescues!

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/rapidfix.html

EPIRBs are also specifically registered to YOU and YOUR PLANE. They send out a coded signal and the monitoring center doesn't just know a plane or boat is in distress, they know YOU are in distress.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Tell me how these work.

Once you crash, if the wire that connects this to your gps is ripped out from damage to the airframe, will it transmit a non-specific signal like the 'old' ELT's? Or will it remember the last known position and transmit those coordinates?
Click to expand...

The ELT "records" the last position received from the GPS and transmits that. The PLB I got attempts to get a GPS fix as soon as you manually activate it and if one is acquired it will transmit that for four hours if the GPS signal is lost. After that it will revert to transmitting the uniquely coded signal without a GPS location.
 
lancefisher said:
The ELT "records" the last position received from the GPS and transmits that. The PLB I got attempts to get a GPS fix as soon as you manually activate it and if one is acquired it will transmit that for four hours if the GPS signal is lost. After that it will revert to transmitting the uniquely coded signal without a GPS location.
Click to expand...

Lance,

I've been thinking about getting one of these, and I'm curious... Is it best to activate it as soon as you know you're in trouble, and will it update the GPS position? Or is the position frozen when you activate it, so you'd want to wait until you're nearly down before activation?

What do you think of the model you chose, and why did you choose that particular model?

Thanks,
 
Troy Whistman said:
I don't remember hearing about this one, but looking at the picture these two young men are very lucky:

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/6337392.html

Reading how far apart the ELT 121.5 signals put the aircraft on the first two satellite passes makes you really think about getting one of the new 406MHz EPIRBS installed. They're not THAT expensive.

In fact, we're less than TWO YEARS away from NOAA's announced shut off date for satellite tracking of 121.5 MHz signals: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/121phaseout.pdf

Got plans to upgrade that ELT at next annual, before the rush? I wonder if there will be an availability issue.
Click to expand...
Who says you have to upgrade the ELT? Just get a 406 PLB and avoid the aviation tax.
 
lancefisher said:
I don't think the lack of SARSAT coverage will have much effect on the ability to locate TSO-C91 ELTs (121.5/243MHz) given that most older ELTs have such unstable frequency sources that the doppler shift method is horribly inaccurate. The really sucky part is that the least expensive TSO-C126 (406MHz) ELTs is still about $1000 plus antenna and installation (figure close to $1500 installed) and if you want the really best chance of being found you need one interfaced to your GPS and that will set you back around $4000. Considering that the actual CGS on these devices is likely around $100-150, you'd think someone would come out with something more reasonable. You can buy a (nearly worthless) C91a ELT for under $200 and a TSO-C126 model has about the same parts under the hood so once beyond the pretty significant certification costs, a $300-500 unit complete with GPS interface ought to be possible. Maybe in the interest of promoting GA safety, the FAA ought to offer "free" certification for anyone willing to sell an affordable new ELT.

Meanwhile, I got tired of waiting so I bought one of these for a bit more than $500:

http://www.equipped.com/terrafix_406gps_plb.htm

It has to be manually activated but it could be used outside the plane too. There is a slightly less expensive (under $500) older model available now too.
Click to expand...

Ditto. I have the older ACR that has an optical cable that goes to the GPS. When I get a round tuit I'll solder the cable to the Garmin plug. I couldn't figure out how to be sure the polarity was right (+ to + ; or + to -) and ACR's tech support was non-existant.

Note that ACR sells the same package in marine, land, and aviation versions. I couldn't tell what the difference was other than the aviation version is called an ELT.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Lance,

I've been thinking about getting one of these, and I'm curious... Is it best to activate it as soon as you know you're in trouble, and will it update the GPS position? Or is the position frozen when you activate it, so you'd want to wait until you're nearly down before activation?

What do you think of the model you chose, and why did you choose that particular model?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Activation while still in the air would be possible and the unit will update the position 20 minutes after activation assuming it can still see the sky. I think you could also manually initiate acquiring of a new GPS position simply by turning the beacon off and back on once you were on the ground. I don't think the 20 minutes would be a significant issue itself, but with any airborne activation, the initial (and possibly only) position transmission could be a long ways from your eventual contact with the earth and since the PLB doesn't continuously update the position (to save the battery) the less time between activation and touchdown the closer you will be to the reported position if no new GPS position is acquired after things settle. The only other downside of this would be that you'd need to put the PLB where the GPS satellites are visible long enough to get a fix while still in the air and then secure the PLB so it didn't become a projectile during the (crash) landing. You also have to consider that many survivable crashes occur without sufficient warning to get the PLB out and activated, this being the chief advantage of a "real" ELT over a PLB.


The model I chose is ACR's PLB-300. (http://www.acrelectronics.com/) This came out just a month or so ago and supposedly has a more sensitive GPS receiver that can acquire a position with tree cover in the way than the previous model. It also is a bit smaller and lighter (10 vs 12 oz) but it's still about the size and weight of a two 'D' Cell flashlight. The previous version was available in two models one with (PLB-201) and one without (PLB-200) an internal GPS and had the ability to couple to an external GPS via an optical interface cable whether you had the model with or without an internal GPS. It was also designed to float (all of the ACR PLBs are reasonably waterproof but none will actually function underwater). Both the old and new models had marine and aviation variants but the differences were mostly asthetic. The PLB-300 model I have is actually the marine version and as far as I can tell the aviation model is simply a different color and doesn't come with the flotation pouch.
 
Bump!

Okay, I have two interested parties thus far. I'd like to get a few more to make it a tad more productive for the benefitting "authority."

I'm not as familiar with these gizmos as many of you are. But, here's the deal I can arrange. These are the only three available to me. There are the aircraft-installed equipment you'll find on the EDMO site and one other

AEROFIX 406/WITH GPS INTERFACE (2799.2) Retail: $560 - Wholesale: $373.00
Expected Purchase Price: $418.00

AEROFIX 406/ONBOARD GPS/+I/F (2799.4) Retail: $690 - Wholesale: $453.45
Expected Purchase Price: $499.00

MICROFIX 406 GPS PLB (2898) Retail: $750 - Wholesale: $570.00
Expected Purchase Price: $615.00

I'm proposing the wholesale price plus shipping plus another $25 to PoA. I'm estimating shipping about $20 or so for ground. That would include a $5 drop-ship fee they charge me if it's not sent directly to me. The PoA portion I'll send on via PayPutz or whatever means Chuck prefers. I don't expect the numbers above to change as EDMO has always been good at keeping their site up to date.

Contrary to what some may think, I'm not going to make anything off of this. It's just something to do to help out a great political site. Oops, I mean pilot web site! :) I used to be able to take credit cards by computer but gave up that gig. The reward cards got to be too expensive. I can still take Discover so if that can work for you, awesome. It just takes longer for me to get the money. I reverted back to a personal PayPutz account so I can accept only one charge there per month for this kind of money. The last option is simply sending a check either the old fashioned way or via Bank of America's transfer which is instant.

I got into selling aviation radios last year for a while and had a kick doing it but one major avionics dealer was selling so cheap, I couldn't compete. The real kicker was they bought from the same distributor I do, EDMO Distributors. If ya see anything on that site that may be able to help ya out, let me know. I can offer both Icom and Vertex Standard radios. Anything ya want and attribute it to this thread, we'll do the same deal and provide a kickback.. eh, I mean support to the PoA site. :)

As for me, I do accept free time in your plane if we ever meet up. :D

KennyFlys said:
I'm able to get the ACR models wholesale. If there's enough interest, I could sell them for just over cost plus shipping and contribute the difference to supporting the board. Post interest here or PM me. Once I know how many might be interested, I can come up with a price. Right now, it would be somewhere around $420-430.

http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=22734&cat_id=912
Click to expand...
 
Great Question Kent! I had always assumed once I know I'm going down I'm activating the gizmo so that if I'm knocked unconcious on impact its already fired up.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yeah, not being an aircraft owner, it's the one I'm interested in too. But do I get it, or put the $$$ towards a GPS with XM weather? :dunno:
Click to expand...

I'd go for a GPS you can use on every flight before getting a locator beacon. If you do serious cross-country flying, satellite weather is priceless, and may keep you from ever needing that emergency beacon. Priceless, but expensive that is.

Jon
 
Bill Jennings said:
That is the one I'm interested in. :yes:
Click to expand...

The "RescueFix" (model #2897) is what I bought. It appears to be identical to the "MicroFix" (2898) with the addition of a flotation sleeve (handy if you ditch IMO). I bought it through a marine source (www.anchorexpress.com) for $558. Shipping cost was $11.25 but that included three inflatable life vests too. If you want the less expensive older version their price on a 406 with GPS is $477. These prices are slightly less than what Ken can do, but that's likely because the volume to a big marine dealer is "a bit larger" than what Ken (or even EDMO) does.
 
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4CornerFlyer said:
I'd go for a GPS you can use on every flight before getting a locator beacon. If you do serious cross-country flying, satellite weather is priceless, and may keep you from ever needing that emergency beacon. Priceless, but expensive that is.

Jon
Click to expand...

I agree that onboard weather is quite a bit more valuable. OTOH, there's no $50/mo charge for the rescue beacon and the purchase price is about one fourth of a 496 so it's hard to compare the two. Then again, I spent a lot more on inflight weather and did that before shelling out $500+ for the PLB so my priorities seem to match your recommendation.
 
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