Odd Pattern Entry - HELP

U

Unregistered

Guest
This happened. Airport info and Pilot info has been changed to protect the damned.

Lets say you are inbound, from the east, for touch and goes at an airport with two parallel runways. These runways are 36L and 36R. 36R is the primary runway and 36L is a shorter runway that sits about a mile further to the west than 36R and the beginning of the runway 36L is about 1/2 mile further south (this is typically the runway that flight training uses).

So, you’re inbound from the east and tower tells you to enter a right downwind for 36L (on the west side of the primary 36R, you are on the east side).

How do you enter the pattern? Both runways are in use. Do you enter a right downwind for 36R, but “fly it to” 36L?

As the controller very clearly let this particular person know, you most definitely should NOT overfly 36R and enter a right downwind for 36L between 36L and 36R !!!

This particular student pilot is lucky they did not get the “do you have a pencil and paper to copy down a number” from tower.

I can't seem to attach an image for visualization while I am posting anonymously...sorry I am still to embarrassed and ashamed to post publicly.
 
Unless 36R was closed, I probably would have questioned such a bizarre pattern entry. I don't think you did anything wrong though, and certainly didn't violate any regulations that I am aware of.
 
I wouldn't call it bizarre or odd. We fairly regularly get similar pattern instructions here at KSUS and KSTL, so I'm assuming elsewhere as well. I do confirm with them to ensure they didn't misspeak the runway number (it happens to the best of us), but other than that I fly it normally. What's so weird? Just a bit wider pattern... And yeah, unless you are instructed to go "between the parallels," then definitely don't overfly one for the downwind.
 
Not sure if this captures the situation, but I presume this is the runway layout and the line indicated is my best guess as to the pattern expected.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    10.9 KB · Views: 987
I did that very thing at Boeing (KBFI) not too long ago. Don't overfly the other runway, just stay wide of the approach end and enter on the normal base leg to the left runway.
 
I would have thought a better way to say it would have been to enter a right downwind for runway 36R expect to sidestep 36L and then to clear you to land 36L.
 
"Confirm a RIGHT downwind for 36L?" is all you have to say. Tower will usually either say "correct", correct his mistake or your misinterpretation, or ellaborate on what he wants you to do. I would have done exactly what Jim drew up and have done it many times at airports with parallel runways.
 
Unregistered said:
This happened. Airport info and Pilot info has been changed to protect the damned.

Lets say you are inbound, from the east, for touch and goes at an airport with two parallel runways. These runways are 36L and 36R. 36R is the primary runway and 36L is a shorter runway that sits about a mile further to the west than 36R and the beginning of the runway 36L is about 1/2 mile further south (this is typically the runway that flight training uses).

So, you’re inbound from the east and tower tells you to enter a right downwind for 36L (on the west side of the primary 36R, you are on the east side).

How do you enter the pattern? Both runways are in use. Do you enter a right downwind for 36R, but “fly it to” 36L?
Click to expand...

Given just that instruction I'd enter downwind for the assigned runway as though the other runway did not exist.

As the controller very clearly let this particular person know, you most definitely should NOT overfly 36R and enter a right downwind for 36L between 36L and 36R !!!
Click to expand...

Then he should have issued instructions with that in mind.
 
If the controller gave you a number to call for flying right downwind between the runways, he'd be putting himself in hot water. "Possible pilot deviation" doesn't always mean you screwed up. The instruction was ambiguous.
 
What seems odd from my experience is the right downwind part. It happens pretty frequently that students return from the west to KLNK to land on the east parrallel runway. The instruction then was always right or left base depending on landing direction. When the west runway had active traffic the approach was to overfly mid field.

I guess if the controller insisted I would do it like the sketch. But it almost seems like the controller misspoke perhaps not realizing it? No doubt the standard pattern for 36L there is left. And right for 18R to avoid this very issue.
 
Last edited:
Unregistered said:
This happened. Airport info and Pilot info has been changed to protect the damned.

Lets say you are inbound, from the east, for touch and goes at an airport with two parallel runways. These runways are 36L and 36R. 36R is the primary runway and 36L is a shorter runway that sits about a mile further to the west than 36R and the beginning of the runway 36L is about 1/2 mile further south (this is typically the runway that flight training uses).

So, you’re inbound from the east and tower tells you to enter a right downwind for 36L (on the west side of the primary 36R, you are on the east side).
Click to expand...
Did the controller specify that the right downwind for 36L was supposed to be between the runways ("west side of the primary 36R"), or did you just come to that conclusion on your own? Unless the runways are a mile apart that doesn't make any sense.

How do you enter the pattern? Both runways are in use. Do you enter a right downwind for 36R, but “fly it to” 36L?
Click to expand...
Baring instructions to the contrary that's exactly what you should do. This kind of pattern happens all the time at towered airports with parallel runways.

As the controller very clearly let this particular person know, you most definitely should NOT overfly 36R and enter a right downwind for 36L between 36L and 36R !!!

This particular student pilot is lucky they did not get the “do you have a pencil and paper to copy down a number” from tower.
Click to expand...
If the airport in question normally sees a lot of student training they usually cut student pilots a fair bit of slack.
 
roncachamp said:
Given just that instruction I'd enter downwind for the assigned runway as though the other runway did not exist.



Then he should have issued instructions with that in mind.
Click to expand...

^^^ What he says.

Without knowing the airport, it's hard to comment for sure, but if the controller doesn't want you to do something then they should state that. There is nothing in the regulations, or the controllers instructions that would prohibit you flying the downwind inside of the two runways although they would have to be spread pretty far apart for that to be a decent downwind.

As you gain experience you'll know when a controller is just being a dick because they didn't think things through too well. They do a damn good job 99% of the time. But they make mistakes too. The good ones will admit their mistake and life moves on and the bad ones will start to chew your ass. If a controller chews my ass because of their mistake I will ask for the number to call them at and will call them to discuss the issue further and have had to straighten things out with their supervisor before. Usually new guys in training, I figure. Almost always a tower controller .

That said, most of the time if something goes wrong, it's my mistake and the controller cuts me slack for it.

I've had one case where a controller filed a PD and told me the FSDO would be calling me about it. I called his supervisor and the supervisor trashed it.

It would really help if you'd give the airport identifier so I could look at how the airport is setup.
 
Last edited:
Unregistered said:
How do you enter the pattern? Both runways are in use. Do you enter a right downwind for 36R, but “fly it to” 36L?
Click to expand...
Basically, yes, and I've seen that happen (from both sides) at KAPA (with the 35 pair), even being switched from the Right to the Left while on right base to the Right. The picture you posted later has it just fine. But if you have any question about your instructions, you should ask the controller for confirmation.

As the controller very clearly let this particular person know, you most definitely should NOT overfly 36R and enter a right downwind for 36L between 36L and 36R !!!
Click to expand...
Ummm, yeah, I think that's about as true as true can be.

This particular student pilot is lucky they did not get the “do you have a pencil and paper to copy down a number” from tower.
Click to expand...
Student Pilots are like puppies -- sometimes they make messes, but you just correct them and move on.
 
Ron Levy said:
The picture you posted later has it just fine.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, I was the one who posted the picture based on the description in the first post, but I am not the original poster.

Another side note while I'm discussing that post - I used the iPad app called TouchDraw to quickly draw the diagram and export it to the iPad Pictures app, whose contents can be uploaded (via the Manage Attachments button) to posts on PoA.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Just to clarify, I was the one who posted the picture based on the description in the first post, but I am not the original poster.

Another side note while I'm discussing that post - I used the iPad app called TouchDraw to quickly draw the diagram and export it to the iPad Pictures app, whose contents can be uploaded (via the Manage Attachments button) to posts on PoA.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the app recommendation.
 
Ron Levy said:
Basically, yes, and I've seen that happen (from both sides) at KAPA (with the 35 pair), even being switched from the Right to the Left while on right base to the Right. The picture you posted later has it just fine. But if you have any question about your instructions, you should ask the controller for confirmation.

Ummm, yeah, I think that's about as true as true can be.

Student Pilots are like puppies -- sometimes they make messes, but you just correct them and move on.
Click to expand...

Amazing.....even on things like this, you and aroma champ cannot agree.
 
If I was told to fly right downwind for 36L, I would fly it as if the other runway didn't exist. If that downwind put me over 36R, so be it.

There's nothing I can find in the AIM or FARs stating one should do it otherwise. If the controller wants one to fly the downwind east of the parallel, they should provide instructions to do so.
 
red4golf said:
I did that very thing at Boeing (KBFI) not too long ago. Don't overfly the other runway, just stay wide of the approach end and enter on the normal base leg to the left runway.
Click to expand...
Not really comparable. In the OP's situation, the runways are about a mile apart. At BFI they are less than 400 ft. apart.
 
Even if they were a mile apart, I still wouldn't operate in the space between the two runways without specific direction from Tower -- that zone is essentially a "no man's land". If directed to enter downwind on the opposite side as the OP was, I'd fly the downwind as normal for the closer runway and just fly a longer base across the final for the closer runway to reach the final for the desired runway -- just like Jim's picture above.
 
Turningfinal said:
If I was told to fly right downwind for 36L, I would fly it as if the other runway didn't exist. If that downwind put me over 36R, so be it.
Click to expand...

The OP said that 36R was the primary runway, and that both runways were in use, so that would create a potential safety issue, if nothing else.

There's nothing I can find in the AIM or FARs stating one should do it otherwise...
Click to expand...

What about the "no transgression" zones depicted in AIM Figure 4-3-3?

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • AIM Figure 4-3-3.jpg
    AIM Figure 4-3-3.jpg
    70.9 KB · Views: 1,864
Ron Levy said:
Even if they were a mile apart, I still wouldn't operate in the space between the two runways without specific direction from Tower -- that zone is essentially a "no man's land". If directed to enter downwind on the opposite side as the OP was, I'd fly the downwind as normal for the closer runway and just fly a longer base across the final for the closer runway to reach the final for the desired runway -- just like Jim's picture above.
Click to expand...

The pilot shouldn't be chastised by the tower for flying their normal downwind however (let's say 1/2 mile from the runway). There's nothing prohibiting it in the FARs or AIM. I would argue that a controller should EXPECT a normal downwind to be flown unless they give specific guidance for the pilot to do otherwise.

Of course, the safe bet is always to query the controller if unsure of what he/she wants.
 
I would point out that Richard's picture with the "no transgression zone" is applicable primarily to nontowered airports. At tower-controlled airports, Tower is free to instruct you to cross that zone if they so choose. However, as I said above, if instructed to fly a right pattern to the left runway, I would not fly that right downwind in that zone without specific instruction to do so -- I'd just fly the normal right downwind for the right runway, and cross the "no transgression zone" on base leg. And I would very pointedly acknowledge that instruction -- "Enter right downwind for 35 Left, Tiger 22RL" (and insert a "please confirm" somewhere in there if I thought they had misspoken, e.g., if I was arriving from the west for landing on one of the 35's).
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
The OP said that 36R was the primary runway, and that both runways were in use, so that would create a potential safety issue, if nothing else.



What about the "no transgression" zones depicted in AIM Figure 4-3-3?

attachment.php
Click to expand...

That image depicts a standard left hand pattern being flown for that runway, and the AIM doesn't specifically mention the NTZ. We're talking about a right pattern being flown for that runway (which is not recommended per the AIM, apparently).

As far as I know, NTZs are generally used for simultaneous parallel instrument approaches. Can any of the controllers here verify if they are in effect for VFR operations in the pattern?
 
Turningfinal said:
The pilot shouldn't be chastised by the tower for flying their normal downwind however (let's say 1/2 mile from the runway). There's nothing prohibiting it in the FARs or AIM. I would argue that a controller should EXPECT a normal downwind to be flown unless they give specific guidance for the pilot to do otherwise.
Click to expand...
I disagree strongly, and Richard's picture from the AIM explains why. I'm not setting up a downwind between the parallels without specific Tower direction to do so. OTOH, if it's a Student Pilot, the Tower should be instructional rather than chastising in any later discussion of the matter. That's why you put that "Student Pilot" tag in your initial call-up -- so they can be better prepared for you to do something other than what they'd expect in an unusual situation, and more understanding if you screw it up.
 
Denver Centennial (KAPA) has a similar configuration, although the runways are much closer together. The tower typically tells us in this situation to make right traffic for 35R, then they sidestep us to 35L on base.
 
Palmpilot said:
What about the "no transgression" zones depicted in AIM Figure 4-3-3?
Click to expand...

Right traffic for the left runway is going to put the aircraft in the zone regardless of the placement of the downwind; e.g. on base. It depicts the traffic patterns for each runway being on opposite sides. It offers no insight on OP's situation.
 
dmspilot said:
Right traffic for the left runway is going to put the aircraft in the zone regardless of the placement of the downwind; e.g. on base. It depicts the traffic patterns for each runway being on opposite sides. It offers no insight on OP's situation.
Click to expand...
Big difference between crossing perpendicular from one side to the other as directed by Tower and flying along parallel between the runways. You'll have to trust me and Steven on this -- if you've been told to enter right downwind for the left runway, no controller in the USA is going to expect you to cross over the right runway and fly your downwind between the runways or otherwise do anything but what Jim depicted.
 
Ron Levy said:
Big difference between crossing perpendicular from one side to the other as directed by Tower and flying along parallel between the runways. You'll have to trust me and Steven on this -- if you've been told to enter right downwind for the left runway, no controller in the USA is going to expect you to cross over the right runway and fly your downwind between the runways or otherwise do anything but what Jim depicted.
Click to expand...

Steven says on Page 1 that he'd enter the pattern like the other runway did not exist, given the instructions OP laid out. I would do the same.

A controller should expect a normal pattern distance unless they give instructions stating otherwise (i.e. enter right downwind to 36L, remain east of runway 36R). I don't see how a pilot should have the onus to fly a non-standard pattern if he's not told to. He's just assuming at that point. The safe assumption is flying a normal pattern unless directed otherwise.
 
Turningfinal said:
Steven says on Page 1 that he'd enter the pattern like the other runway did not exist, given the instructions OP laid out. I would do the same.

A controller should expect a normal pattern distance unless they give instructions stating otherwise (i.e. enter right downwind to 36L, remain east of runway 36R). I don't see how a pilot should have the onus to fly a non-standard pattern if he's not told to. He's just assuming at that point. The safe assumption is flying a normal pattern unless directed otherwise.
Click to expand...
The safe assumption is to stay out of the zone between the two runways unless specifically told otherwise.
 
Ron Levy said:
The safe assumption is to stay out of the zone between the two runways unless specifically told otherwise.
Click to expand...

After 45 years, you have so many permutations of how to do things that likely you've forgotten how a new pilot could invent new ways to screw them up;)

Never underestimate human stupidity.
 
Jaybird180 said:
After 45 years, you have so many permutations of how to do things that likely you've forgotten how a new pilot could invent new ways to screw them up;)

Never underestimate human stupidity.
Click to expand...

The student pilot acted correctly in this situation.

If a controller wants you do to something out of established rules/norms, he needs to be the one to state it. In this case, if he wanted the pilot to fly a right downwind outside of the area between the runways, he should've either stated so (enter right downwind to Runway 36L, remain east of runway 36R) or told him to enter the right downwind to 36R and expect to sidestep to 36L.

As it was stated to the pilot (enter right downwind for Runway 36L), the correct course of action is to enter the normal right downwind for Runway 36L. There's no reason (per the FAR, AIM, or otherwise) to do it any other way other than pulling a blind assumption out of one's a**.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's what I would do.
Click to expand...

Here in Austin KAUS has parallel north/south aligned runways, with the east runway being preferred for GA airplanes. I've used this technique in similar situations when approaching from the west.
 
Turningfinal said:
The student pilot acted correctly in this situation.

If a controller wants you do to something out of established rules/norms, he needs to be the one to state it. In this case, if he wanted the pilot to fly a right downwind outside of the area between the runways, he should've either stated so (enter right downwind to Runway 36L, remain east of runway 36R) or told him to enter the right downwind to 36R and expect to sidestep to 36L.

As it was stated to the pilot (enter right downwind for Runway 36L), the correct course of action is to enter the normal right downwind for Runway 36L. There's no reason (per the FAR, AIM, or otherwise) to do it any other way other than pulling a blind assumption out of one's a**.
Click to expand...
:popcorn:
 
Ron Levy said:
Big difference between crossing perpendicular from one side to the other as directed by Tower and flying along parallel between the runways. You'll have to trust me and Steven on this -- if you've been told to enter right downwind for the left runway, no controller in the USA is going to expect you to cross over the right runway and fly your downwind between the runways or otherwise do anything but what Jim depicted.
Click to expand...

In that diagram that was posted, you'd be at about 900 AGL on base crossing 36R's final continuing onto your turn for 36L's final. Seems like a bad place to be. I've done the diagram at our Class C, but confirmed with tower what they wanted and the runways are close together at our Class C (not a mile apart).
 
danhagan said:
In that diagram that was posted, you'd be at about 900 AGL on base crossing 36R's final continuing onto your turn for 36L's final. Seems like a bad place to be.
Click to expand...
Not if Tower told to fly a right pattern to the left runway and didn't say anything about traffic landing on the right.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top