Odd ATC Communication

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
I flew into Dallas Love, IFR in a Piper Arrow, the other day and had some interesting procedures told to me by Regional APP. APP said they would call our base to final turn. :confused:

We were told to follow a Galaxy and slip in between a Southwest departure and arrival. However we could only make out the Galaxy until his position put him in our horribly scratched windscreen. Flying into a setting sun didn't help either. :( The students were never taught how to wash a window. :confused:

I called negative contact on all traffic. So APP told us to follow the freeway and they would call our base to final turn. Which threw my CFI into a small attack because he couldn't find the "freeway" on any APP chart. He finally said he trusted my judgement. :wink2: He later told me he didn't know what a freeway was as he is from France. Me personally the busier the airspace the more fun it is.

So has anyone ever been told this by ATC before? This is my first few flights into Class B. Our local C just tells us to find the airport and maybe gives us headings.

My CFi and I told our Flight Dept head about the windscreen but I don't think anything can be done.
 
ARFlyer said:
I flew into Dallas Love, IFR in a Piper Arrow, the other day and had some interesting procedures told to me by Regional APP. APP said they would call our base to final turn. :confused:

We were told to follow a Galaxy and slip in between a Southwest departure and arrival. However we could only make out the Galaxy until his position put him in our horribly scratched windscreen. Flying into a setting sun didn't help either. :( The students were never taught how to wash a window. :confused:

I called negative contact on all traffic. So APP told us to follow the freeway and they would call our base to final turn. Which threw my CFI into a small attack because he couldn't find the "freeway" on any APP chart. He finally said he trusted my judgement. :wink2: He later told me he didn't know what a freeway was as he is from France. Me personally the busier the airspace the more fun it is.

So has anyone ever been told this by ATC before? This is my first few flights into Class B. Our local C just tells us to find the airport and maybe gives us headings.

My CFi and I told our Flight Dept head about the windscreen but I don't think anything can be done.
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In the Salt Lake City area the freeways depict many of the Class B boundaries and pilots are often instructed to "remain east of the freeway" etc. Those roads are pretty clearly marked on the area chart and are real easy to spot on the ground from the air.
 
Same here in DEN. "Remain clear of the Class Bravo, VFR, West of I-25" is virtually guaranteed from DEN TRACON if VFR northwest-bound out of KAPA, requesting Radar Advisories. Same thing Southbound.

Quite a choke-point for VFR traffic and you see a lot of it just West of the highway, regularly opposite direction. (This being a great reason to request advisories every time.)

On the very rare day when DEN is landing traffic Eastbound, the typical VFR traffic north-south, and descending Eastbound airliners right overhead, is quite an entertaining display of altitude separation techniques. I recall thinking "I'm going to descend soon if that Southwest jet keeps descending..." right as DEN TRACON reminded him of his descent restriction he was about to blow through after he asked me if I had the 737 in sight.

737s look really big passing overhead at minimum separation distances, crossing your flight path at a 90 degree angle. ;)

In the early 90s I remember that the published pattern altitude for the eastern-most north-south runway at KVNY was 200' lower than the Western side, due to eastbound airliners overhead landing KBUR.

I believe the usual local instructions included highways there too, but that was long enough ago, I don't remember what the names of them were.

I just remember that they were hard to find on the local area chart, and easy to find in a Thomas Guide later in the car. ;)
 
Ok that makes sense. I just had never heard that over the radio until now. Little Rock Class C never gets busy enough to give these instructions. Half the time I'm vectored, cleared for the approach 40 miles out and cleared to land 20 miles out.
 
denverpilot said:
On the very rare day when DEN is landing traffic Eastbound, the typical VFR traffic north-south, and descending Eastbound airliners right overhead, is quite an entertaining display of altitude separation techniques. I recall thinking "I'm going to descend soon if that Southwest jet keeps descending..." right as DEN TRACON reminded him of his descent restriction he was about to blow through after he asked me if I had the 737 in sight.

737s look really big passing overhead at minimum separation distances, crossing your flight path at a 90 degree angle. ;)
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That's always entertaining in DAL also. It always humorous to see a passing conga line of 737s only 1000' above you. I always seem to meet the inbound AA DFW flight into LIT as I'm departing at night. When ever ATC asks if they have us insight I just turn on our SUPER bright LED landing lights. Once I had a surpised pilot call back saying he has the star insight. I been told by a few pilots that we are not hard to spot even 40 miles away.
 
NorCal approach instructs pilots to stay on whatever side of freeway pretty often. I believe the magic word "unfamiliar" is appropriate if you are...unfamiliar :)
 
Now your instructor knows how we feel when we go to Europe and are told to make a left circuit for a roller landing, and no reheat on the departure. FWIW, American controllers are probably the worst controllers in the world for using nonstandard English words, but American pilots are probably the worst in the world for that, too, so inside the USA, we get along fine -- it's just hard on the visitors,
 
Flying into Love can be a real challenge, because Regional App has to deal with the possible interference between traffic at KDAL and KDFW. They used to have a procedure called the "Stadium Visual," based upon using the old Texas Stadium (where the Cowboys used to play) as a visual reporting point (sort of an IAF forth evisual), but the demolition of the stadium sort of did away with that.

The Stadium Visual has been replaced with the "Love West Visual Rwy 13R" ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1113/00106LOVEWEST_VIS13R.PDF ). (Anyone see the historical artifact in the procedure?)

Still, they expect pilots flying to Love in visual conditions to be aware of the airspace, and the roads are a big part of that. If you are coming in from the east, they pretty much expect you to follow I635 (LBJ), then I35E (very close to CVE VOR) as a "base."

It all works out (we have really good controllers), but it would surely be a stress point for a pilot who was not familiar with the area and its airspace quirks.
 
denverpilot said:
Same here in DEN. "Remain clear of the Class Bravo, VFR, West of I-25" is virtually guaranteed from DEN TRACON if VFR northwest-bound out of KAPA, requesting Radar Advisories. Same thing Southbound.
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Which brings me to something I was discussing with a co-pilot on a recent x/c trip... it sure would be nice if they put the names of major interstates on sectionals!
 
While you might not have it onboard as you were IFR, the Dallas TAC chart and Dallas Heli charts both depict the freeways fairly well. When I'm flying around in the NYC Class B, I carry the Heli chart with me as it has more fine grained depiction of surface features and Class B boundaries.
 
dell30rb said:
Which brings me to something I was discussing with a co-pilot on a recent x/c trip... it sure would be nice if they put the names of major interstates on sectionals!
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Would be nice...

...funny, though: onthe Visual plate I linked to above, they refer to Stemmons Freeway as "US77," which it is, but not one person in 100 will know it by that designation; nearly everyone knows it as "I35E," which it also is.

OBTW: No one has flagged to the historical artifact, yet...
 
SCCutler said:
Would be nice...

...funny, though: onthe Visual plate I linked to above, they refer to Stemmons Freeway as "US77," which it is, but not one person in 100 will know it by that designation; nearly everyone knows it as "I35E," which it also is.

OBTW: No one has flagged to the historical artifact, yet...
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Some/most freeway names are on TAC charts, from what I've seen.
 
I always say if you don't know ask but asking what a Freeway is could provoke an interesting response, Here we have the "Turnpike Bridge" as a reporting point flying into KPNE. You might want to explain to your CFI that from the air a Freeway, Highway, Turnpike and Interstate are all pretty much the same.:rolleyes:
 
Ok, spike, is it the commerce building? I don't see anything else that looks weird.
 
Jeanie said:
Ok, so what's no reheat on the departure?
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Entering a Round-a-bout on the M4 like you would when they had "circles" in Jersey. No stops, Full speed, and ignore incoming traffic. They get "reheated" when you do that over there. :D
 
SCCutler said:
Flying into Love can be a real challenge, because Regional App has to deal with the possible interference between traffic at KDAL and KDFW. They used to have a procedure called the "Stadium Visual," based upon using the old Texas Stadium (where the Cowboys used to play) as a visual reporting point (sort of an IAF forth evisual), but the demolition of the stadium sort of did away with that.

The Stadium Visual has been replaced with the "Love West Visual Rwy 13R" ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1113/00106LOVEWEST_VIS13R.PDF ). (Anyone see the historical artifact in the procedure?)

Still, they expect pilots flying to Love in visual conditions to be aware of the airspace, and the roads are a big part of that. If you are coming in from the east, they pretty much expect you to follow I635 (LBJ), then I35E (very close to CVE VOR) as a "base."

It all works out (we have really good controllers), but it would surely be a stress point for a pilot who was not familiar with the area and its airspace quirks.
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My current CFI hates flying into Dallas. He thinks the controllers are always angry and gives us wild instructions I.E. "the freeway one". He thinks that our tail number has a bad rep from other students. I find them quite pleasent to deal with as along as you do what they say.

I found that the one place they DO NOT like mistakes is the last Regional guy before Love Tower. :nono: The one that ask you to report the field insight. I figure as you said that we our bouncing inbetween DAL and DFW traffic. I must say that Love is a difficult airfield to pickout. :eek:

Is there a VFR training area over by ADS? Both times I have flown in I have had to watch out for VFR traffic 500' below us. :yikes: Its either all Heli or small trainers.
 
Where I did my training in and out of was at a class-D airport that had a major interstate running near by, and it was common to remain North for incoming and South for departing traffic.

I do wonder though, if you were filed IFR, how did they expect you to see the freeway?
 
SkyHog said:
What the hell is a TCA Floor? ;)
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Ding Ding Ding - we has us a winnah!

Nick, TCA means "Terminal Control Area," which is what Class Bravo airspace used to be called until...

...September 16, 1993.

Ofcourse, the plate also references the Texas Commerce Bank building downtown, which has not been TCB since 1987.

But it is a current plate.
 
Jeanie said:
Ok, so what's no reheat on the departure?
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He's having fun fighting his iPad spelling correction. Over on the Red board, we caught him dreaming of a deserted beach when he mentioned something about Grumman's and their "frond speed" :thumbsup:
 
SCCutler said:
Ding Ding Ding - we has us a winnah!

Nick, TCA means "Terminal Control Area," which is what Class Bravo airspace used to be called until...

...September 16, 1993.

Ofcourse, the plate also references the Texas Commerce Bank building downtown, which has not been TCB since 1987.

But it is a current plate.
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And here I thought it was HURBS intersection. Isn't he a historical artifact? :rofl:
 
Mike I said:
Some/most freeway names are on TAC charts, from what I've seen.
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I rather like the idea that one state had of painting the highway numbers on the roadway. Though I never saw it from the sky, I would bet you could see them clearly from 1,000 feet.It helped the drivers on the road and it would help the guys in the sky too.
 
Heck, maybe they should paint Class B airspace borders and state lines ;)
 
Even out here in the boonies being told to remain East of the expressway, or report crossing the freeway, or follow I-75 North, is done multiple times an hour... In our case there are no roads close to I-75 that it would be confused with, so it works fine...
 
Ha! I got the commerce building, but I missed the TCA.
 
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