Observations About Aircraft Sellers (Year 2014)

Using a Broker:


Ahhh.... so, you are going to use a broker so you don't have to deal with a bunch of potential buyers asking you questions. Great decision on your part, it takes time and effort to sell a plane, so you'll make a trade off to compensate a broker for his efforts.


Guess what, I still have the same questions, but now we have a middle man between us. I still want pictures of the plane. I still want copies of the logs. I still want workorders from the engine shop. You will still have to expend the effort to get the information to the Broker.

Found one plane in that was listed by a broker.

Mr. Broker: "Great plane, flies like a dream, no damage history, well maintained...."

Me: "Is the plane located with you in North Carolina?"

Broker: "No, it is in Texas".

Me: "Have you inspected it?"


Broker: "No, it is in Texas".


Me: (to Google) "N1234xx" "Search"

Google:"NTSB Report Sept-2006, etc..."

Me: (to Broker) "Could I get copies of the logs?"

Broker: "How far back, it is a 40 year old plane?"

Me: "Oh, at least to the year prior to the accident and subsequent years".

Broker: "Accident?"

Me: "Yeah, looks like it had a bit of damage a few years back"

Broker: "Oh, well I will ask, if you are serious. Could you go to my website and make an offer that I can present to the Seller. It is completely non-binding, but just lists the conditions that you want with the offer." (Note: His "offer form" on his website spends equal amounts of time trying to convince the form is NOT a legal offer while also spending equal amounts of time trying to convince the form IS a legal offer and binding.)

Me: "Well, after I see the logs, I can likely come up with a list of the conditions."​
 
Did anyone else go to HunksOfAluminum.com to see if it was a real site?

:dunno:

Just me?
 
Dude you are still trying to get a retail experience in a freak niche market. Be like water.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I got a question:


So, you can either be prepared and have your pictures all ready to email, or, you can tell me that next time you get to the airport, and it is sunny, and the snow lets you open the hangar, and you can get somebody to move their Cub, you will pull it out of the hangar and take some more pictures that I would like to see.
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People are very bad at taking photos too. I love the ones with the headsets the portable GPS and all their associated wires all tangled up, and a couple charts and an A/FD laying on the seat with a Styrofoam coffee cup sitting in the cup holder suction cupped onto the pilot side window. I just laugh.

Gene
 
rbridges said:
the "inquire" price aggravates me, too. If the price scares me away, talking to you on the phone isn't going to make extra $$$ show up in the bank account.
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Used by people who a) have no idea what to ask, or b) are "selling" it under orders from SWMBO and know that potential buyers are going to pass right over the ad. "Sorry, dearest, it's be advertised ALL OVER for a year, no takers!"
 
C182P said:
A statistical sample size of one has no meaning.
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Nonsense, the federal government uses that method to set policy for 330 million Americans every day. Whoops- off to the Spin Zone!
 
ClimbnSink said:
Dude you are still trying to get a retail experience in a freak niche market. Be like water.
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Right, buying an aircraft is not like walking into an Apple store.


Perhaps the best way to find your new 'hobby toy' is to post on forums like this with what you are looking for; real sellers and those who know of matching airplanes will help narrow things down and put serious people together.

It's like looking for a new job; networking is the only way that really works.
 
There are lots of airplanes for sale at any one time, the issue with airplanes is that no two are alike! Very seldom will you find even something as common as a 172 with a twin for sale with similar hours, avionics, damage history, paint and interior condition etc. So that's why most sellers think they have the BEST one. :D

paflyer said:
Right, buying an aircraft is not like walking into an Apple store.


Perhaps the best way to find your new 'hobby toy' is to post on forums like this with what you are looking for; real sellers and those who know of matching airplanes will help narrow things down and put serious people together.

It's like looking for a new job; networking is the only way that really works.
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JoseCuervo said:
Actually have been looking at C-180's and Maules
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If a 180 or Maule is what you want, then why on earth are you wanting to do a pre-buy on a 182???

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68715

JoseCuervo said:
thanks for letting me know how easy it should be.
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You're very welcome.

JoseCuervo said:
And, if you can show me the SORT function on TradeAPlane or Controller that allows you to sort by Seller Communication Skills, I will be appreciative.
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You are buying an airplane. If you aren't willing to spend the time yourself to do your own research and due diligence, then I would suggest hiring someone to help you find the airplane of your dreams.....whatever that may be.
 
C182P said:
A statistical sample size of one has no meaning.
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I sold my Bo in about a week with a fair but not great advertising. It was very clean. I was avail almost anytime. I never gave out the N number, I never gave out the logs, but they were avail for insp when you come to my hangar(a real buyer comes to the plane). I made a little money on the deal after fixing a few small details that were important. (the OP missed a great plane)
 
docmirror said:
I sold my Bo in about a week with a fair but not great advertising. It was very clean. I was avail almost anytime. I never gave out the N number, I never gave out the logs, but they were avail for insp when you come to my hangar(a real buyer comes to the plane). I made a little money on the deal after fixing a few small details that were important. (the OP missed a great plane)
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I know, and, thanks to some of your links, I have read quite a few advertisements on Bonanzas for sale.... For 1/2 my mission, they would likely be the best choice. For the other 1/2 my mission, they would possibly work, but not be the best choice.

Not sure how a "real buyer comes to the plane" when a "real buyer" has other obligations in life that prevent the "real buyer" from arranging to meet at airports 150-300-600 miles away to see if the 3 fuzzy pictures on Barnstormers are representative of a plane I would like to invest in doing a pre-buy and a contract.

I do stop into small airports when out of town, walk in and look for the bulletin board and ask if anybody knows of any planes that might meet my needs. It will be a needle in a haystack if it happens, but, it does give me the chance to BS about flying, once in awhile.
 
Dad sold his 182, with no ads, just word of mouth. he came down on the price a couple grand due to the older radios, but it went to a good home for a fair price.
 
bluerooster said:
Dad sold his 182, with no ads, just word of mouth. he came down on the price a couple grand due to the older radios, but it went to a good home for a fair price.
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That's how I bought the 182, a friend of mine had a customer that told him was going to quit flying and wanted to sell his airplane. :D
 
Tom-D said:
That's probably true, when you want the seller to give you a new aircraft.

Except the possibility that you may have to pay for what you want.
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Lol, yep. I've had plenty of calls an people tell me that they want my plane for what another 310 is listed for, "Well, go buy it." "Yeah, but it doesn't have... and it's higher time" "Then why should I sell mine at the same price as theirs?" "You want to sell yours right?" "Yep, but you want me to give it away." I actually have had the fortune of tracking one guy for the last year. He now has a 310D in airworthy condition (it's been in the shop for a year, still doesn't have any panel upgrades or autopilot) and has already spent $30k more than he could have bought mine for and been flying a year ago, and still has high time engines.
 
In the last two months I've looked at planes in Austin Dallas, Houston TX, OK, WI, and WA. Buyers go where the plane is and look at it, and talk to the seller in person, and review the logs, take a hop etc. Posers make phone calls.
 
docmirror said:
In the last two months I've looked at planes in Austin Dallas, Houston TX, OK, WI, and WA. Buyers go where the plane is and look at it, and talk to the seller in person, and review the logs, take a hop etc. Posers make phone calls.
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Yep, that's why contrary to what was posted before, most 'Call for Price' ads are from brokers. I don't mind that if I'm seriously shopping for that piece of equipment because I'm calling him anyway for details and to make an appointment to see it. I don't even start negotiations until I've seen the plane. Most people who are 'plane shopping' advertised prices aren't serious buyers or are bottom feeders. I flew from Jakarta to Phoenix to check out my plane, made the deal 15 minutes after seeing it.
 
I feed at the bottom some times. Money is money. Otherwise they would call it feces.

My last score was a 1990 Porsche 928 GT for $5800, and a few years ago a 1992 Porsche 968 for $1800. Both of them are pretty nice now, after spending a bit of time and cash.
 
docmirror said:
I feed at the bottom some times. Money is money. Otherwise they would call it feces.

My last score was a 1990 Porsche 928 GT for $5800, and a few years ago a 1992 Porsche 968 for $1800. Both of them are pretty nice now, after spending a bit of time and cash.
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You paid nearly $6k for a Pacer Sport Coupe?:rofl:;)

I have no issues with bottom feeders, but if you're bottom feeding and I have something to offer bottom feeders, don't expect me to waste a bunch of time. A bottom feeder should be just fine with an ad that says Cessna 150, $7500 As Is, 555-555-1212. When you get me on the phone (and I talk to people who call) the only thing you should be asking is "Does it fly?" and "Where can I come get it?" Those two questions will tell you everything you need to know about the deal until you come see the plane.

Heck, I don't even mind spending time on the phone with dreamers and schemers, just start your call with "I saw you had ____ for sale, could I pick your brain about that for a few minutes?"

As for looking at log books, lots of people send me log books to review, every now and then I find something in the logs that gives a clue to condition or problems, but typically I find the real stuff when I go look at the airplane and I get into the box of papers that the log books are in. That's where the STCs, 337s, and work orders are. Personally I don't care if I don't see the logs until I look at the plane.
 
Yup, bottom feeders don't expect a lot in the ad that the OP wants. They also drive around with buckets of cash, and make the deal right now. I have a couple of searches saved for rare cars, and if they pop up, I go see them. I bought a lamborghini pretty cheap about 10 years ago that way. It was owned by Bob Crane out in CA, and his son had it for quite a while and it was mostly a mess. I showed up with munnee, and a trailer and took it off his hands.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Guess what, I still have the same questions, but now we have a middle man between us. I still want pictures of the plane. I still want copies of the logs. I still want workorders from the engine shop.
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You sure want a lot for a guy with no skin in the game.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Using a Broker:


Ahhh.... so, you are going to use a broker so you don't have to deal with a bunch of potential buyers asking you questions. Great decision on your part, it takes time and effort to sell a plane, so you'll make a trade off to compensate a broker for his efforts.


Guess what, I still have the same questions, but now we have a middle man between us. I still want pictures of the plane. I still want copies of the logs. I still want workorders from the engine shop. You will still have to expend the effort to get the information to the Broker.

Found one plane in that was listed by a broker.

Mr. Broker: "Great plane, flies like a dream, no damage history, well maintained...."

Me: "Is the plane located with you in North Carolina?"

Broker: "No, it is in Texas".

Me: "Have you inspected it?"


Broker: "No, it is in Texas".


Me: (to Google) "N1234xx" "Search"

Google:"NTSB Report Sept-2006, etc..."

Me: (to Broker) "Could I get copies of the logs?"

Broker: "How far back, it is a 40 year old plane?"

Me: "Oh, at least to the year prior to the accident and subsequent years".

Broker: "Accident?"

Me: "Yeah, looks like it had a bit of damage a few years back"

Broker: "Oh, well I will ask, if you are serious. Could you go to my website and make an offer that I can present to the Seller. It is completely non-binding, but just lists the conditions that you want with the offer." (Note: His "offer form" on his website spends equal amounts of time trying to convince the form is NOT a legal offer while also spending equal amounts of time trying to convince the form IS a legal offer and binding.)

Me: "Well, after I see the logs, I can likely come up with a list of the conditions."​
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"Send me a deposit of 5% earnest money and I'll provide whatever you want."
 
Cash is king.

The guy who bought my Bo didn't know much about them. He was moving up from a Beech Mouse. I showed him the good stuff, and warned him about the bad. I took time to detail the plane before it was sold, but hey - it's a Bo and they do mark their territory with oil. Live with it. He went and looked at a couple other planes after viewing mine, and after his third call back in a week, I knew we were gonna do biz.

I had three other calls from around the US, but one one other guy showed up and he was a bottom feeder, so I said fixed price, and didn't waste much time.

Might as well get a buyers agent and give them the specifics of the deal wanted, and let him do the work, and charge accordingly. You'll pay more, but you'll get what you want that way, but the agent has to make a dime too.
 
docmirror said:
Cash is king.

The guy who bought my Bo didn't know much about them. He was moving up from a Beech Mouse. I showed him the good stuff, and warned him about the bad. I took time to detail the plane before it was sold, but hey - it's a Bo and they do mark their territory with oil. Live with it. He went and looked at a couple other planes after viewing mine, and after his third call back in a week, I knew we were gonna do biz.

I had three other calls from around the US, but one one other guy showed up and he was a bottom feeder, so I said fixed price, and didn't waste much time.

Might as well get a buyers agent and give them the specifics of the deal wanted, and let him do the work, and charge accordingly. You'll pay more, but you'll get what you want that way, but the agent has to make a dime too.
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They don't necessarily cost you more either. There is a gentleman on this board that flew me across the country and paid all my expenses for a few days to inspect a Bonanza. I found some issues on a Bonanza that got fixed or negotiated which added up to more than my costs. We even managed to have some fun for a few days in San Diego and he saved some money and got a good plane.:D
 
Tom-D said:
You sure want a lot for a guy with no skin in the game.
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The more he talks, the more he sounds like a classic tire-kicker. Doesn't really know what he wants and will find any excuse to rule out an airplane that he isn't even sure he wants to buy in the first place.
 
docmirror said:
In the last two months I've looked at planes in Austin Dallas, Houston TX, OK, WI, and WA. Buyers go where the plane is and look at it, and talk to the seller in person, and review the logs, take a hop etc. Posers make phone calls.
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I recently sold a trophy winning taylorcraft. ( I've had to fly light sport the past 8 years) I placed it on the taylorcraft site.....nothing. Then I put it on TAP, a site many say doesn't get results. A fellow called from Arizona. I'm in maryland. I was very courteous, explained carefully it's history and that he could take it to any airshow and get a prize. Told him how to get in touch with the rebuilder and the AI who had recently annualed it. He called back two hours later and said the check was in the mail, ( it arrived in two days) did i know anyone who could fly it out there. Yes I did,and he did for a grand and his ticket home. The new owner keeps it at stellar airpark.(a very "upscale" airpark.) It was a very well done rebuild , 9 inside and out, very complete logs . I'm glad I didn't become arrogant and smart a$$ with him originally. I got my money, he got a very nice airplane. You just never know. If the add says " no tire kickers" I automatically cross it off my list.
 
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bluerooster said:
Dad sold his 182, with no ads, just word of mouth. he came down on the price a couple grand due to the older radios, but it went to a good home for a fair price.
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Exactly how I expect it will happen, putting out feelers to people who know people who know people.

And I did have an agreement, I thought, on one at the local field. Older gentleman losing his medical. I was visiting him every week or so, he was just waiting til Spring when he lost his medical...

Couldn't find him for a few weeks, turns out he sold it to someone else for more than our agreement. Nice plane, fair price, hangared 75 yards from the AI who would maintain it.
 
Henning said:
Yep, that's why contrary to what was posted before, most 'Call for Price' ads are from brokers. I don't mind that if I'm seriously shopping for that piece of equipment because I'm calling him anyway for details and to make an appointment to see it. I don't even start negotiations until I've seen the plane. Most people who are 'plane shopping' advertised prices aren't serious buyers or are bottom feeders. I flew from Jakarta to Phoenix to check out my plane, made the deal 15 minutes after seeing it.
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Aren't you also an A&P? I would think 15 minutes is all you would need. I buy and sell big ticket items (think construction / mining) and I know in 14 minutes if I will buy/trade something. 30 year old airplanes are going to take more time and info on my part.
 
docmirror said:
In the last two months I've looked at planes in Austin Dallas, Houston TX, OK, WI, and WA. Buyers go where the plane is and look at it, and talk to the seller in person, and review the logs, take a hop etc. Posers make phone calls.
Click to expand...

In this day and age, why not do the initial screen via jpg files?
 
docmirror said:
Cash is king.

The guy who bought my Bo didn't know much about them. He was moving up from a Beech Mouse. I showed him the good stuff, and warned him about the bad. I took time to detail the plane before it was sold, but hey - it's a Bo and they do mark their territory with oil. Live with it. He went and looked at a couple other planes after viewing mine, and after his third call back in a week, I knew we were gonna do biz.

I had three other calls from around the US, but one one other guy showed up and he was a bottom feeder, so I said fixed price, and didn't waste much time.

Might as well get a buyers agent and give them the specifics of the deal wanted, and let him do the work, and charge accordingly. You'll pay more, but you'll get what you want that way, but the agent has to make a dime too.
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That's the nice thing, I can close immediately, don't need to get an appraisal, not wait on a loan to be approved.

Cash is always king.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The more he talks, the more he sounds like a classic tire-kicker. Doesn't really know what he wants and will find any excuse to rule out an airplane that he isn't even sure he wants to buy in the first place.
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I actually do know what I want, but, that doesn't stop me from reading advertisements on lots of other models, and allows me to make observations on what I am seeing.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Aren't you also an A&P? I would think 15 minutes is all you would need. I buy and sell big ticket items (think construction / mining) and I know in 14 minutes if I will buy/trade something. 30 year old airplanes are going to take more time and info on my part.
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Nope, not an A&P, but I know machines, and more importantly, I know people. I just had to talk to the owner for 5 minutes and I knew what condition the plane was in. When we got to the hangar I confirmed it in 10 minutes. The problem with phone calls is you miss body language and eye contact. Plenty of planes I spend a day going through the paperwork and the plane, but I don't waste my or my client's time on the phone. All I need to know is "where is it and is it available to view in the next few days?" My buyers all want to buy a machine, not spend time shopping. I don't trust what ads say or pictures show anyway, it's often incorrect or invalid in the current decade.
 
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JoseCuervo said:
Sellers market or a Buyer's market?
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Doesn't matter, it's never a shopper's market though because shoppers aren't serious buyers, they are always looking for a better deal. Shoppers want to see everything about every plane that will be on the market for the foreseeable future because they want to make sure that they get the best deal ever. If you're a serious buyer, you'll ask a few questions and go look and see what's actually there.

This is all part of why I say, "Buy your last plane first." Buying a plane is an expensive risky proposition, even if everything checks out ok, that is no guarantee that it won't cost you another $30k to get it home. The funny thing is most of the people who call me are buying their second or subsequent aircraft and know what a time and travel hassle it is to do right and having someone do the legwork for them is a bargain. Right now I'm on an 80' yacht getting it ready to ship to Italy, the new owner hasn't seen it yet and won't until its ready to go into service in the Med.
 
Henning said:
Because photographs are not an accurate representation.
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Ain't that the truth? Not even if they show the bad stuff.

There was a plane I was mildly interested in up for salvage auction locally. The insurance company's web site had pictures showing the damage... well, most of it. They showed the bent prop, torn wing, busted gear. Took me a few minutes to get around to looking at the thing square on from the front... frame was twisted up pretty good. It went from "Yeah, that's rebuildable" to "Well, the grandkids will love having the fuselage in the back yard to play in" in about ten seconds.

Lesson learned. Never -- ever -- make a decision based on what pictures show, no matter how many there are or how complete/detailed they seem to be.
 
Henning said:
"Send me a deposit of 5% earnest money and I'll provide whatever you want."
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He can call me and I'll tell him where the aircraft is and make an appointment to see it and I'll show him any thing he wants to see as long as it does not cost me any thing.

If I told 10 people that my 170 was for sale I would have 7 offers before the end of the day.
 
Henning said:
Lol, yep. I've had plenty of calls an people tell me that they want my plane for what another 310 is listed for, "Well, go buy it." "Yeah, but it doesn't have... and it's higher time" "Then why should I sell mine at the same price as theirs?" "You want to sell yours right?" "Yep, but you want me to give it away." I actually have had the fortune of tracking one guy for the last year. He now has a 310D in airworthy condition (it's been in the shop for a year, still doesn't have any panel upgrades or autopilot) and has already spent $30k more than he could have bought mine for and been flying a year ago, and still has high time engines.
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Honest question: why hasn't your plane sold yet? I've salivated over the pics on numerous occasions but I'm not in the market for a twin (nor rated to fly one). Seems like you've done everything the OP has semi-defined as constituting a proper sales effort but with no luck...yet. :confused:
 
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