O2 above 18,000

EdFred

EdFred

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So I did a quick scan of the FARs and all I could find was in part 23 for installed systems.

Do you need to abandon cannulas and go to a mouth and nose delivery system above 18,000 ft if not installed. And if you don't need to, at what altitude *should* you switch over, or does it not matter? Just thinking ahead since the next plane will have Class A capability.
 
I was flying with a fellow once who climbed his airplane to FL220 while we were on cannulas. We were in very busy airspace outside of Atlanta during poor weather that had airliners rerouting every 10 seconds. He began showing distinct signs of hypoxia. I offered to fly for a while and he promptly passed out when he relinquished the controls. First order of business was to descend back to FL180 despite the bumps he'd climbed to avoid. I then checked myself on the pulse oximeter and was at 90, but it came up to 94 in a minute or two. Total time above FL180 was probably about 10 minutes.

He is a well-known person in aviation. He should have known better.
 
Cannulas above 18,000':

Are they legal? Yes, AFAIK.

Have I used them on fairly regular basis >18000'? Yes, when I was young, foolish and ignorant.

Did it ever hurt me? Not that I can tell, but maybe that's why I'm missing some brain cells.

Would I do it today? :no:

PS: In those days I had never even heard of a pulse oximeter. I'm not sure they were made for other than medical uses at that time.
 
Even if you were to use the mask instead of canulas make sure you are monitoring your pulse ox.

At what point would you need a positive pressure mask?
 
It depends on the type of cannula and how well they work for you. I can't do cannulas above 17k, as my O2 saturation will get too low.

I wouldn't ever go above 24-25,000 in a non-pressurized aircraft, anyway. The risk of DCS is very real, and I'd rather not have to call 512-LEO-FAST ever (that's a good number to remember if you're doing high altitude ops).

-Felix
 
Ed: I read somewhere that Mountain High had some cannuli one could go above FL180 using, but they are expensive and require batteries for the regulator.

I've gone up to FL250 with a mask. I would suggest using a sat. meter anytime you go on either. I found that cannuli really didn't do the job for me above FL160. It's not just altitude, it's duration, your body and how it uses Ox. and other factors. I even had a leak around the face of my mask once that almost caused me problems; luckily I knew the symptoms, felt it coming on and made adjustments.

The main reason I went pressurized is I like flying in the lower flight levels, and the cannula/mask thing was complicated, time consuming and I could feel fatigue when up for a long time even with decent sat. readings. I still use a cannula in the P-Baron when the cabin goes above 8 to 10,000 dependent on how long I'll be up and conditions like night flight.

Best,

Dave
 
back to Ed's question,
doing a search for 'mask' in pt 91 of the FARs results in
http://fardb.com/section/91.211&ref=search

....which has the general requirements for supplemental oxygen in the mid teens and the pressurized cabin requirements for masks in some situations abv 350.

Does that mean you are not technically breaking any laws to zoom into the stratosphere with your personal unpressurized rocket? I am not sure but I know what I would do.
 
There's also a new apparatus called a Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device (ROBD) which can be used as an alternative to the altitude chamber. I saw this demonstrated, although not on myself. The trainees wore something that looks like an O2 mask where air and nitrogen were mixed to give the desired altitude. They flew a desktop simulator up to about 25,000’ and are told to recover and make an emergency descent when they recognized their symptoms. That was interesting to watch and would probably be more interesting to do.

Here is a little more about a similar program using full-motion simulators.

http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=641&page_number=1
 
The 1968 T210 at the club is certified to 30,200' and they talk about needing to use a mask above 25,000' in the operations handbook. No way I'd take it that high (though apparently it did come back from CO at 25,000), and I'd be using masks above 18,000'. Not regulatory, AFAIK, but that's me!
 
I think RVSM kicks in before you get to 30,000. Is the 210 equipped for that? If not, you won't be going to 30,000 anayway :no:
 
You can enter RVSM airspace while being non-RVSM equiped as long as ATC approves it. Not likely for a piston single, but possible.
 
EdFred said:
I think RVSM kicks in before you get to 30,000. Is the 210 equipped for that? If not, you won't be going to 30,000 anayway :no:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know. But the manual was written well before RVSM was dreamt of! However, that was one of the first questions I asked when I saw the certified ceiling!
 
gprellwitz said:
The 1968 T210 at the club is certified to 30,200' and they talk about needing to use a mask above 25,000' in the operations handbook. No way I'd take it that high (though apparently it did come back from CO at 25,000), and I'd be using masks above 18,000'. Not regulatory, AFAIK, but that's me!
Click to expand...
:eek: A mask won't help with DCS.

O2 saturation is only one concern. The other is pressure (or lack thereof) and gas bubbles in your blood. Having had a mild case of DCS in my left arm, I can say that that's not a fun thing. Sadly, you mention DCS to most pilots and you just get a blank stare...

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
:eek: A mask won't help with DCS.

O2 saturation is only one concern. The other is pressure (or lack thereof) and gas bubbles in your blood. Having had a mild case of DCS in my left arm, I can say that that's not a fun thing. Sadly, you mention DCS to most pilots and you just get a blank stare...

-Felix
Click to expand...
No blank stare from me, since I'm also a diver. I'm just trying to figure out, though, how you can have DCS in a non-pressurized plane without a very high climb rate. The only rapid altitude change you'll have is a rapid decent in the event of an O2 loss, in which case you might need to worry about ruptured eardrums, but certainly not Nitrogen that's expanding.
 
It also depends on circulation. There are four or five reports of pilots in turbo singles who got bent. Even with very slow final ascent, if the circulation is unable to extract N2 to tissues, what's left will bubble....
 
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