NTSB: Cockpit weather displays could mislead private pilots

Alexb2000 said:
I just left KMEM a couple of weeks ago. I went into the clag immediately on the climb out and there was not one break until I was at 14K. The sky was SOLID overcast with light rain in every direction for 200 NM. The point is there are circumstances where even a pilot that likes to remain visual is going IMC if they fly IFR. In those cases the tools are great to have vs. nothing.

What do you do on those days?
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I play pipeline pilot and stay underneath or I don't go if it's full of embedded T-storms.
 
TMetzinger said:
If it's convective, I stay on the ground. If it's not, then I launch.
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No close convection, some one direction at 80+ miles. Siting in the plane in the rain with low cloud cover everywhere, it's nice to have some tools to look at whats up in those clouds before taking off. Even just to verify conditions from the time you pre-flighted to departure. I just don't like launching off into solid IMC anymore with nothing but a couple of Nav heads (NOT because of navigation, because of weather avoidance).
 
Piloto said:
I have not seen these long WX delays with XM except when you loose the signal in the vicinity of GTK or at the fringe of signal coverage. I think these long delays events are more related to the WX receiver not receiving the signal and displaying the old data rather than the NEXRAD WX update. This is a problem that can be more common with ADS-B WX via UAT link than with XM\WX. In either case always look at the data age field. Having an external WX antenna improves the WX updates since there less signal interruption.

Jose
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I'm with Mark. How do you know when the combined signal (the compilation of all of the sweeps) left the originating Doppler radar facility on its way to be processed and ultimately transmitted to the user? There's nothing in the cockpit display that gives a pilot this information.

Bob Gardner
 
Alexb2000 said:
No close convection, some one direction at 80+ miles. Siting in the plane in the rain with low cloud cover everywhere, it's nice to have some tools to look at whats up in those clouds before taking off. Even just to verify conditions from the time you pre-flighted to departure. I just don't like launching off into solid IMC anymore with nothing but a couple of Nav heads (NOT because of navigation, because of weather avoidance).
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No argument.

If I have 'spherics (Strikefinder or Stormscope) on the airplane, then I just require getting no closer than 25 NM to strikes, and I prefer to stay visual if I can. If I can't be visual then I go around or I divert and land and wait.

XM is what I use for 50+ NM planning.
 
Henning said:
I play pipeline pilot and stay underneath or I don't go if it's full of embedded T-storms.
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Convection one direction 80+ miles, low ceilings, you're going to have to fly ~200 NM in IMC. Go or no go?
 
Henning said:
Go, you're mixing apples and grapefruits here.
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I don't think so. You're going to be in IMC conditions without any opportunity for a visual reference for over an hour. As you said, storm systems change. In this scenario I like XM, ATC, and stormscope enough to make it a go. Wouldn't you like to have XM in this scenario?
 
I think a lot more people have been killed skud running than by flying in IMC.

As far as embedded thunderstorms and the like, it really depends on your equipment. That's the big reason why I like my on-board radar, stormscope, etc.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't think so. You're going to be in IMC conditions without any opportunity for a visual reference for over an hour. As you said, storm systems change. In this scenario I like XM, ATC, and stormscope enough to make it a go. Wouldn't you like to have XM in this scenario?
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I will climb into visual conditions within a few minutes.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Tops were 14K. If you had XM onboard don't tell me you wouldn't want a glance or two at it???
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Wow, reading ability on this board is really failing..., of course I would look at it. I would not trust it as being gospel truth.

As for 14k, it takes me about 10 minuts to get there first off, second off, where did you find a solid layer 14k' thick that wasn't in a cell? Not a layer or striation from bottom to top is quite unusual in summer weather.
 
Henning said:
Wow, reading ability on this board is really failing..., of course I would look at it. I would not trust it as being gospel truth.

As for 14k, it takes me about 10 minuts to get there first off, second off, where did you find a solid layer 14k' thick that wasn't in a cell? Not a layer or striation from bottom to top is quite unusual in summer weather.
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I'm not trying to pick a nit, I'm suggesting that even for someone that likes to stay visual XM has value (agreed it isn't gospel). Some of your prior posts made it sound like you didn't see any value in it. Sounds like we agree.

June 10 ~09:00 local departing KMEM. Heavy overcast and light rain in front of the strong system pushing up from the gulf at that time. No layers but a smooth ride through it.
 
Again, a lack of reading comprehension. I said it is third tier information. All information has value, the question lies in where one places that value. XM weather is definitely not a "go/no go" piece of equipment for me, more importantly the information it produces will not cause me a go or no go, ergo, it's third tier, just 'other info'.

I don't mind the pretty picture one bit, I trust it for accuracy as much as I mind it.

Now again I'll ask, that was a solid 14k deck with no gaps to stay visual between the layers?
 
Henning said:
Again, a lack of reading comprehension. I said it is third tier information. All information has value, the question lies in where one places that value. XM weather is definitely not a "go/no go" piece of equipment for me, more importantly the information it produces will not cause me a go or no go, ergo, it's third tier, just 'other info'.

I don't mind the pretty picture one bit, I trust it for accuracy as much as I mind it.

Now again I'll ask, that was a solid 14k deck with no gaps to stay visual between the layers?
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Don't get snappy about it, we all mis-interpret things written on a forum. I gave you that scenario exactly because of your quoted comments. If XM is third tier in your mind and not a go/no go then I guess you would fly that day based on pre-flight info only (assuming no onboard), I am not sure, that's why I'm asking?

Once more, SOLID overcast 09:00 departing KMEM June 10. Tops were 14K. I was there, I'm sure.
 
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Henning said:
XM weather is definitely not a "go/no go" piece of equipment for me, more importantly the information it produces will not cause me a go or no go, ergo, it's third tier, just 'other info'.
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It certainly HAS been a go/no go piece of equipment for me. And I know many others who value, and use it the same way. There have been numerous cross several state flights, in which in-flight decision making was the right one, thanks to XM weather. Sure, I could have made contact with an FSS several times, perhaps used a cell phone to get updated weather at the destination airport, and so on. But I didn't have to. It was updating the weather conditions for for the entire trip, on my 696 moving map. This is over states such as Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado, and Montana. Weather can change constantly, and XM is a VERY worthwhile addition!!!!!

L.Adamson
 
Henning said:
I will climb into visual conditions within a few minutes.
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How would you know how high to go? One nice feature that XM\WX has is the Cloud Tops depiction. I found it to be pretty accurate even when there is no precipitation. It tells me whether is worth to climb or just to stay down. I do not know of any onboard radar that can show cloud tops without precipitation . By knowing the cloud tops it helps me on assessing turbulence conditions in a build up that has no precipitation yet (onboard radar needs rain for doppler to work). I found it to be very useful in the absence of radar returns.

José
 
Henning said:
It has nothing to do with like or dislike, I recognize the limitations of the technology and don't use it to blow smoke up my own ass to make me feel safer operating around weather. I feel perfectly safe operating in weather without XM, I don't mind having it, I don't need it and I surely do not use it as any sort of tactical weather picture. It's just another piece of information, one that is of third tier value, that's it. If you convince yourself it's anything more than that you're setting yourself up for a surprise.
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What are the other 2? One is Mark-I and the other???

Henning said:
Again, a lack of reading comprehension. I said it is third tier information. All information has value, the question lies in where one places that value. XM weather is definitely not a "go/no go" piece of equipment for me, more importantly the information it produces will not cause me a go or no go, ergo, it's third tier, just 'other info'.

I don't mind the pretty picture one bit, I trust it for accuracy as much as I mind it.

Now again I'll ask, that was a solid 14k deck with no gaps to stay visual between the layers?
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About 2 months after receiving my ticket, I used it (by watching moving trend) to disagree with the briefer and made a no-go. By my figuring, the storms would arrive at my destination at too close of a time to my arrival. Even plotting the long way around the one enroute wouldn't have allowed me to make it safely. Re-evaluating...I would still make that same call today (1+ year later).
 
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