NPRM for commercial pilot requirements

Dave Theisen

Dave Theisen

Final Approach
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Dave Theisen
Anyone know what the current status is? I'm about to start working with a commercial pilot student and want to have the latest information.

Thanks
 
Thanks Ron. I couldn't find any recent information on it and I would hate for the rules to be changed in the middle of my students training.
 
If your trainee already has an instrument rating, and didn't get it with less than 20 hours of instrument flight training (book min is 15 but few do it with less than 20), the worst that happens is you're doing 10 hours of complex unnecessarily. Given that, if s/he qualifies under the existing rule, s/he would still be good to go under the new rule as proposed.
 
applicant owns non complex, would have to rent complex. I think we will start working on maneuvers in his airplane to save some money anyway, and then move on to the complex. Even if the rules change, we both want him to get some complex time anyway.

I was more concerned about what the FAA defines "advanced instrument training" as. He has more than twenty hours with a CFII in preparation for his instrument rating. Does that fufill the proposed new requirement or are another twenty required specifically for the commercial?
 
Just re read your last post Ron, looks like no further instrument training is required in this case.
 
I'm interested in this too, mainly to know whether I should plan to do the checkride in a 172 or a 210. Already have all the hours and training minimums, just need to work on maneuvers.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I was more concerned about what the FAA defines "advanced instrument training" as. He has more than twenty hours with a CFII in preparation for his instrument rating. Does that fufill the proposed new requirement or are another twenty required specifically for the commercial?
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The IR has always covered the historically-required 10 hours of instrument training, so there's no reason to believe that additional training for the IR won't do it. Here's what the guy who wrote the rule said:
The intent of this proposal would require the time to be cumulative (meaning 10 hours of instrument training in existing 61.129(3)(a)(i) and (3)(b)(i) and 10 hours of the advanced instrument training in proposed 61.129(a)(3)(ii) and 61.129(b)(3)(ii)) which totals 20 hours of instrument training for commercial pilot certification. All of which will be allowed to be counted toward the instrument rating if and when the applicant chooses to seek an instrument rating. Our intent for this proposal (besides not requiring our pilot schools to have to maintain lease agreements on 30 and 40 year old complex airplanes) is to encourage pilots to seek instrument ratings.
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Further, there's the FAA's definition of "advanced instrument training" in the NPRM:
...the training must include instrument approaches consisting of both precision and non-precision approaches, holding at navigational radio stations, intersections, waypoints, and cross-country flying that involves performing takeoff, area departure, enroute, area arrival, approach, and missed approach phases of flight;...
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...which pretty much matches what you'd cover in IR training. So, if you did at least 20 hours of instrument training (including both sim and flight time -- the NPRM says "10 hours of advanced instrument training in a single engine airplane, or in a flight simulator, flight training device, or an aviation training device that replicates a single engine airplane,") to get your IR, you've got both instrument squares for commercial filled.
 
gprellwitz said:
I'm interested in this too, mainly to know whether I should plan to do the checkride in a 172 or a 210. Already have all the hours and training minimums, just need to work on maneuvers.
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I'd say it all depends on how immediately you want the CP versus your willingness to wait for the FAA wheels to finish turning.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I'd say it all depens on how immediately you want the CP versus your willingness to wait for the FAA wheels to finish turning.
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Plus, if they were to publish the new rule in the Federal Register today, it will not take effect for at least 30 days...

So if you're ready, may as well get 'er done.
 
Thanks Ron. I just wanted to be sure that what I have read and what the FAA is thinking were the same, it's not easy to tell sometimes.
 
JeffDG said:
Ron Levy said:
I'd say it all depends on how immediately you want the CP versus your willingness to wait for the FAA wheels to finish turning.
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Plus, if they were to publish the new rule in the Federal Register today, it will not take effect for at least 30 days...

So if you're ready, may as well get 'er done.
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Of course, I have no immediate plans for using the commercial. I just don't want to let this knowledge exam expire like the previous one did!:mad2:
 
Latest from 800 Independence Ave -- due to a totally unexpected wave of comments against this proposal (including a big one from ALPA), this thing is not moving as expected. Further information not available.
 
Thanks Ron,

sounds like my guy will get it done under the current requirements.
 
Anyone hear anything about the NPRM recently? I was thinking of getting my power commercial add on, and would rather not have to rent the crappy Arrow IV in town.
 
Go rent the Arrow, even if it does pass, it will be a while before the changes are official.
 
vontresc said:
Anyone hear anything about the NPRM recently? I was thinking of getting my power commercial add on, and would rather not have to rent the crappy Arrow IV in town.
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I'm considering a return to Ames for the CFI... Unfortunately I don't know any of the CFI's there any more. :dunno:
 
tonycondon said:
did green castle sell the Arrow?
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No, but it doesn't fly like the 182. That, and it requires three hands to do some of the maneuvers.

Of course, they use the thing so little I could probably just bring it up here for the winter. ;)
 
I gave up on waiting and should take my checkride in an Arrow II next month. Expect the final rule shortly after I take my checkride.
 
TMetzinger said:
I gave up on waiting and should take my checkride in an Arrow II next month. Expect the final rule shortly after I take my checkride.
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Thanks for taking one for the team Tim. Let me know when you finish so I can start mine in the 182! hahaha
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No, but it doesn't fly like the 182. That, and it requires three hands to do some of the maneuvers.

Of course, they use the thing so little I could probably just bring it up here for the winter. ;)
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Huh? I did my CFI ride in an Arrow. I don't recall any three handed maneuvers.
 
EdFred said:
Huh? I did my CFI ride in an Arrow. I don't recall any three handed maneuvers.
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The only thing that's been a pain so far is switching tanks - but I plan on having my "student" do that. Otherwise the Arrow II has been a pussycat to fly. My only complaint is that after flying Mooney and Socata airplanes with pushrods for the control surfaces I'm spoiled - the Arrow doesn't respond as precisely which makes 8's-on-pylons and some other manuevers a little more challenging.
 
EdFred said:
Huh? I did my CFI ride in an Arrow. I don't recall any three handed maneuvers.
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This particular Arrow is an Arrow I (yeah, the old 180hp variety) which still has the automatic gear extension system installed, and does NOT have a notch on the disable switch to hold it in place. So, any of the slower-airspeed maneuvers, you'd need to hold it up yourself.

I never did like the gear on that plane - With the auto-extend it didn't want to come up until well over Vy, so there was a fairly narrow range of airspeeds where it'd want to come up but still below Vlo. But, with the gear still hanging out it didn't particularly want to climb or accelerate either, so I'd generally end up retracting the gear by putting the gear switch up and then holding the auto-extend disable until it had retracted and accelerated enough to keep it from dropping again.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This particular Arrow is an Arrow I (yeah, the old 180hp variety) which still has the automatic gear extension system installed, and does NOT have a notch on the disable switch to hold it in place. So, any of the slower-airspeed maneuvers, you'd need to hold it up yourself.

I never did like the gear on that plane - With the auto-extend it didn't want to come up until well over Vy, so there was a fairly narrow range of airspeeds where it'd want to come up but still below Vlo. But, with the gear still hanging out it didn't particularly want to climb or accelerate either, so I'd generally end up retracting the gear by putting the gear switch up and then holding the auto-extend disable until it had retracted and accelerated enough to keep it from dropping again.
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That's what the CFI "student" / DPE is for.
 
EdFred said:
That's what the CFI "student" / DPE is for.
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That means I need help to practice, though... Blah.

The real reason I'd rather go the extra distance to Ames to use the 182RG is simply that I have a lot more time in the 182 (and more recent) than in PA28's. I fly PA28's, I wear 182's. Just makes it a lot easier, and there's enough stuff that's "different" just from the left to right seat transition that I'd rather not change anything else if I can help it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That means I need help to practice, though... Blah.

The real reason I'd rather go the extra distance to Ames to use the 182RG is simply that I have a lot more time in the 182 (and more recent) than in PA28's. I fly PA28's, I wear 182's. Just makes it a lot easier, and there's enough stuff that's "different" just from the left to right seat transition that I'd rather not change anything else if I can help it.
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I'll echo what Ron and others have said. The CFI is not about how well you fly the airplane. It's about how well you TEACH (first priority) while flying (much less a priority).

I "wear" a 172 or 182 from the left seat, but transitioning to the right seat in the 172 was a PITA. I had 0 time in Arrows and probably less than 30 hours total in PA28s, and I'm now at 5.6 in the Arrow and able to focus on teaching rather than flying. I think some of that is the 3.6 hours I spent in the 172 first, and my body has "caught on" to the right seat changes. Anyway, the goal as I understand it is not to fly every manuever flawlessly, but to demonstrate the manuever while simultaneously describing it, and if you make a mistake (too steep a bank in a lazy 8, for example), describe the error and the correction as you make it.

Getting into the habit of verbalizing EVERYTHING while flying so that you're teaching is important. It's a lot easier to have to work to shut up than it is to have to work to keep spouting the information. I think you're less likely to bust for talking too much (as long as what you say is correct) than for talking too little.
 
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