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BillG

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
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301
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Massachusetts
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Bill Greenberg
On Monday my newly overhauled engine arrived at the airport where my new (to me) Tiger has been stranded for 6 weeks. Over the course of several phone calls since last week I was assured by at least 2 people that I would be flying by Friday, so I started to make plans to go out and pick up the plane. Well, I just got off the phone and they haven't even started it yet. :no: I now conclude that I've been getting the runaround since at least last week. I can't believe this! :hairraise: I don't know if I'm ever going to get my airplane... :dunno: As far as I can figure I have no recourse either - they don't give a crap and will do it when they feel like it (and probably over charge me). :( They know I'll never be back there, so what do they care about how happy I am with them? ARGH! :mad:
 
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Several things you have to learn to live with in the halls of plane ownership:

The only time measurement device that the mechs and techs can read is a calendar. Preferably one with a month or more per page.

If the work is being done at your home drome, they will be somewhat more attentive due to the continual possibility of you looking over their shoulder. This naturally puts work being done on a transient aircraft lower on the schedule.

That being said, all the people I have dealt with (cept one) have been polite courteous and helpful. And very understanding of the withdrawal symptom we go through when our plane is grounded.
 
Bill, I can relate. When my airplane was dinged by Hurricane Charley last summer, it took 3 1/2 months to get a wing replaced, and that was actually speeded up by American Champion diverting one off their assembly line.

I can imagine your frustration. Just keep telling yourself it's better for it to be done right than done quickly. Perhaps that's false consolation, but it's better than nothing.
 
I've owned planes (well, one other one) since 1999 and have worked with several different types of mechanics. These guys are polite, but giving me the runaround, knowing there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. It's not that it's taking them a long time (yes, I want it done right!) but that they haven't even bothered to start it!!! Even though they told me several times that they would. I'm done being patient - I need my plane!! And we're having a big YE rally on Saturday during which I wanted to show off my new plane of course... ARGH
 
BillG said:
I've owned planes (well, one other one) since 1999 and have worked with several different types of mechanics. These guys are polite, but giving me the runaround, knowing there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. It's not that it's taking them a long time (yes, I want it done right!) but that they haven't even bothered to start it!!! Even though they told me several times that they would. I'm done being patient - I need my plane!! And we're having a big YE rally on Saturday during which I wanted to show off my new plane of course... ARGH

Bill, is this shop big enough to have a maintenance shop manager? You need to have a polite conversation with him about honoring commitments. I wouldn't threaten or go ballistic, but simply explain how important the plane is to me and that at this point you're justifiably disappointed so far with the (lack of) progress. The closest I'd come to a subtle threat would be to mention that I'd hoped to be able to make a positive recommendation of their shop on Airnav and that there is still a chance for this. Give him a chance to explain why they delayed starting on your airplane and what he's doing to expidite things for you. Try to get him to promise to keep you informed if anything comes up that would cause further delay. If there isn't a maintenance shop manager, then try the facility manager and/or owner. Generally, I've found most shops trying to be as helpful as possible to transients as they do for the locals, so it wouldn't surprise me to find that you're potential to be a repeat customer isn't really the issue.
 
I haven't really been able to figure out who is who, but I think the second guy I've been dealing with is the manager. He just flat out lied to me though. One guy told me the plane wasn't even pulled into the shop yet. The other guy just told me that he didn't think they'd be done with the work by tomorrow but they're working on it (how, if the plane isn't even in the shop??) I just have to ride this out, then give them hell when it's all over. At least I can ***** here and get out my frustrations! :) They do know that I'm disappointed, but they don't seem to care.
 
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BillG said:
I haven't really been able to figure out who is who, but I think the second guy I've been dealing with is the manager. He just flat out lied to me though. Andrew told me the plane wasn't even pulled into the shop yet. Chris just told me that he didn't think they'd be done with the work by tomorrow but they're working on it (how, if the plane isn't even in the shop??) I just have to ride this out, then give them hell when it's all over. At least I can ***** here and get out my frustrations! :) They do know that I'm disappointed, but they don't seem to care.

Have it done right. If there are additional parts they find they need, it will take time.

I know it's frustrating, but it will be worth the wait when they're done.

Rush 'em too hard and they'll cut corners. Then you'll pay, and pay, and pay.
 
No - you guys aren't getting it. It's not they they're having trouble with parts, or are rushing it or anything else. They have not yet even STARTED. It's not going to get done at all if they don't START WORKING ON IT like they said they were going to....
 
typical. they've got you where they want you, and there isn't a thing you can do about it. my advice is either go over there and lean on them (probably won't help), or take a nice long vacation (a cruise would be good) and hope for the best when you get back. i too can never find serenity in things i have no control over no matter how many times i say the prayer! good luck. someday soon you'll be enjoying your new plane and this will all be a distant memory! tc
 
So, how much would it cost to take the wings off, and truck the plane and engine back to your home field where you have some control over the timing and quality of the work?
 
Joe Williams said:
So, how much would it cost to take the wings off, and truck the plane and engine back to your home field where you have some control over the timing and quality of the work?
Probably cheaper to just buy Tom Downey a few Fairchild parts and fly him in to do the work!
 
Ken Ibold said:
Probably cheaper to just buy Tom Downey a few Fairchild parts and fly him in to do the work!

I wouldn't have thought it would be all that much :( When 320, a Skyhawk I learned in, ate a valve and was landed on a softball field, they took the wings off in an afternoon and towed it back to the airport on a trailer towed by a pickup. Sounded simple enough. I'd hate to have work as important as an engine replacement being done by people with no particular reason to care, and no way for me to check up on it.
 
Aviation is not for people in a hurry.

Keep telling yourself that.

Hitch a ride up there. Bring donuts, visit with the mechanics, become the service manager's new best friend.

Having put an engine in a plane with my own hands (and my mechanic's) I can tell you that it is a time-consuming process and almost will certainly turn up lots and lots of little stupid things that need to be replaced, due to cracks, due to wear, due to wrong parts being installed over the years, etc. It also takes a long time to pop-rivet and trim the baffle seals and so on.

Best of luck to you. Have patience and a checkbook handy.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Probably cheaper to just buy Tom Downey a few Fairchild parts and fly him in to do the work!

I have 6 weeks vacation on the books now, and to top it off I was rasied in up state NY, (Walton) I really wouldn't mind a paid busmans holiday.

Do Have to bring my guns too ? or will the facility give up the parts freely?
 
Bill. I know this is frustrating. But I agree with some others who adivised to go visit them. Rent a plane or get a ride, but show up and show interest in the project and let them know you'll be checking in on a regular basis to see how they're doing. Its your plane, that is your right. I'm sure they'll be calling you with the "we found such and such, can we proceed with repair/replacement?" And if they're not calling you they should be (when the actually start), so if they're not calling, call or visit them regularly.
 
Bill - hang in there and don't feel bad about keeping the pressure on them. With the work that goes into putting the engine on, I suspect they have had the intention of starting it many times to have someone stop by with a small need, a quick question, or an "emergency" - the next thing you know, well its too late to start on that Tiger today.

I do understand that the worst part of it for you is that they aren't providing accurate or consistent status. Politely, but firmly, letting them know that you'd be happier with the delays if they were just a little more open about may help.

Good luck!
 
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Joe Williams said:
So, how much would it cost to take the wings off, and truck the plane and engine back to your home field where you have some control over the timing and quality of the work?

An extra 50 hrs of labor and $3.00 a mile for somebody competent to haul it. Won't save any time since once they get on it it's a 2 day job cowling off to flying. It'll take that long to pull the wings and tail properly and load it on a truck.
 
Bill: I agree with Anthony and Larry. Show up bring Pizza, doughnuts etc. squeaky wheel gets the grease. If all else fails is there a possibility you could rent a hanger for a few weeks and bring in your own A&P to do the work. I feel for you. If you recall my post about the friend who had the Lance held hostage by the paint shop for four months. The paint shop was all the way across the state. You absolute must show up sometimes unannounced sometimes announced. If they know you are coming on Tuesday they may get their butts in gear to have something to show you. Hang in there.
 
larrysb said:
Aviation is not for people in a hurry.

Keep telling yourself that.

Hitch a ride up there. Bring donuts, visit with the mechanics, become the service manager's new best friend.

Having put an engine in a plane with my own hands (and my mechanic's) I can tell you that it is a time-consuming process and almost will certainly turn up lots and lots of little stupid things that need to be replaced, due to cracks, due to wear, due to wrong parts being installed over the years, etc. It also takes a long time to pop-rivet and trim the baffle seals and so on.

Best of luck to you. Have patience and a checkbook handy.

Better yet, go up with tool box in hand and start goin at it. There may be another situation going on as well that y'all might not be considering, that the guy is busy with his local 135 operator airplane which is having problems (Priority work) and other work that he already had scheduled before you dropped in on him. As to the guy not being honest about what's happening, that's plain wrong, no excuses for that. I'm always straight forward with my clients. "Here's what's goin on an why...". Most people can deal with honesty. "Sorry, I've got some prior commitments I've got to finish before I can get to you, you are scheduled for xx/xx/xx and I hope to meet that schedule."

The repair station I worked at, we were always busy. If you wanted to come in and do the bolt turning grunt work and all we provided was specialty tools, equipment and knowledge, you could get done quick at a fraction of the price. On this project, if I was Bill, I wouldn't worry about any of the "catches", this is a bolt off,bolt on project to ferry it home where it can be all wrapped up and repackaged, at home, with his mechanic so he can come see. Unless it's truly an immediate airworthy issue, it flies with minimum work done. I could hang that sucker in 2 days.
 
NC19143 said:
I have 6 weeks vacation on the books now, and to top it off I was rasied in up state NY, (Walton) I really wouldn't mind a paid busmans holiday.

Do Have to bring my guns too ? or will the facility give up the parts freely?
Bill, here's your answer right here.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Probably cheaper to just buy Tom Downey a few Fairchild parts and fly him in to do the work!

The way things are going, it would probably turn out that there's a local ordinance prohibiting anyone from working on an airplane unless they buy a license from the city and carry $5M liability with the cith as a named insured.
 
Thanks, all... The reality is that they're not there on the weekend and I'm working a project I can't leave at the moment, so I'm just going to wait it out. If I had showed up the plane wouldn't have been in the hangar anyway. It'll get done when it gets done. I was just a bit frustrated with them lying to me and not doing a thing. It should take them a day to get the engine back on, then I'll bring it to my mechanic and make sure it's all done right.
 
when they said Friday, did you ask which Friday?

Gee, I feel for you. It's stuff like this which makes me hotter than a $2 pistol. I cannot believe some of the responses here. Absolutely no, you don't have to accept it. What if they bury a hatchet in your forehead, you gonna' settle for that too? What a bunch of BS that this is the way it is in aviation. The guy lied to you and without an explanation why it is reasonable for you to assume he knew he was stringing you along from the get go.

The first issue is what they said and what they did (or didn't do) don't match up. Big red flag. And no explanation from them. Another big red flag. I think you nailed it; they got you by the short and curlies and they know it. So what you gonna' do about it, sonny? The fact that they did not perform as advertised demonstrates incompetence. Okay, so maybe they're off to a soft start. Give them some more time, they're mobilized and now they're rolling along. But sufficient time for all that has already passed. It's almost like they have abandoned your job.

Insult to injury, your plane was stored for a prolonged time out in the wx without notification to you. Big liability there. In CA, most often the shop is not responsible for damage arising from outside storage. But if they were in any way negligent... Didn't think about that, huh? Didn't have to because the shop said they'd get right on it and you believed them. Geez, it only gets more convoluted the more time goes by. Seemingly, they have a calloused disregard for you and your property.

When your assets are tied up and put out of your control because you dared to take someone at their word (or work order, if there was one) there are damages incured. You have provided all you said you would provide yet they operate without good faith and the fair dealing you reasonably expect. They are defrauding you of your rightly owned property.

If it was me I'd be one the phone--polite, but insistent--going up the chain of command. Once it's determined who that one person is and (if) it turns out he is part of the problem you go beyond him. I'd give him one more chance (and let him know it's one more chance) by letting him know in no uncertain terms I want him to supply specific answers to specific questions. He has seven calender days to comply. And the conversation isn't finished until we both agree to a specific date when I'll be making the follow up call.

If anything is marginal, meaning not in complete compliance with your demands, or he does not provide a satisfactory explanation, you bring out the big guns.

You send that letter your lawyer already drafted. You notify every agency you can think of. You make your comments on AirNav. You stop payment on any funds you've sent him. You seek liquidated damages. You seek redress in any and every form you can imagine. By the time you're done with him he'll gladly pay to have your plane trucked away just to cut his lossess.

You or anyone else can say I'm full of **** but they are stringing you along and you are letting them. I've been there, boy, have I been there. Venting on a webboard is good, but you've got to get on top of this before any more time goes by. In fact, time is your enemy right now; you need to make it a priority to seek complete redress from this current status. Do not settle for less than what was originally promised.

I'd really like to hear their explanation for the delay and also why their words don't match their actions. If you haven't yet kept a communications log I suggest you start keeping one; start by recording from the best of your memory what has already transpired and from now on as it happens.
 
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Re: when they said Friday, did you ask which Friday?

Richard said:
Gee, I feel for you. It's stuff like this which makes me hotter than a $2 pistol. I cannot believe some of the responses here. Absolutely no, you don't have to accept it. What if they bury a hatchet in your forehead, you gonna' settle for that too? What a bunch of BS that this is the way it is in aviation. The guy lied to you and without an explanation why it is reasonable for you to assume he knew he was stringing you along from the get go.

The first issue is what they said and what they did (or didn't do) don't match up. Big red flag. And no explanation from them. Another big red flag. I think you nailed it; they got you by the short and curlies and they know it. So what you gonna' do about it, sonny? The fact that they did not perform as advertised demonstrates incompetence. Okay, so maybe they're off to a soft start. Give them some more time, they're mobilized and now they're rolling along. But sufficient time for all that has already passed. It's almost like they have abandoned your job.

Insult to injury, your plane was stored for a prolonged time out in the wx without notification to you. Big liability there. In CA, most often the shop is not responsible for damage arising from outside storage. But if they were in any way negligent... Didn't think about that, huh? Didn't have to because the shop said they'd get right on it and you believed them. Geez, it only gets more convoluted the more time goes by. Seemingly, they have a calloused disregard for you and your property.

When your assets are tied up and put out of your control because you dared to take someone at their word (or work order, if there was one) there are damages incured. You have provided all you said you would provide yet they operate without good faith and the fair dealing you reasonably expect. They are defrauding you of your rightly owned property.

If it was me I'd be one the phone--polite, but insistent--going up the chain of command. Once it's determined who that one person is and (if) it turns out he is part of the problem you go beyond him. I'd give him one more chance (and let him know it's one more chance) by letting him know in no uncertain terms I want him to supply specific answers to specific questions. He has seven calender days to comply. And the conversation isn't finished until we both agree to a specific date when I'll be making the follow up call.

If anything is marginal, meaning not in complete compliance with your demands, or he does not provide a satisfactory explanation, you bring out the big guns.

You send that letter your lawyer already drafted. You notify every agency you can think of. You make your comments on AirNav. You stop payment on any funds you've sent him. You seek liquidated damages. You seek redress in any and every form you can imagine. By the time you're done with him he'll gladly pay to have your plane trucked away just to cut his lossess.

You or anyone else can say I'm full of **** but they are stringing you along and you are letting them. I've been there, boy, have I been there. Venting on a webboard is good, but you've got to get on top of this before any more time goes by. In fact, time is your enemy right now; you need to make it a priority to seek complete redress from this current status. Do not settle for less than what was originally promised.

I'd really like to hear their explanation for the delay and also why their words don't match their actions. If you haven't yet kept a communications log I suggest you start keeping one; start by recording from the best of your memory what has already transpired and from now on as it happens.

WOW.
Hey Richard...wanna come work for me?? I have a contractor and developer that need a talking to.

Richard is right though. I have been strung around like a puppet too long myself, And sometimes you just gotta take controll.

Michael
 
The guy (Paul) that put me up for the night when I unceremoniously ended up there looked out his window this morning and told me that my plane is still out there, not being worked on. I've worked my way up the chain as much as possible, but I'm going to be calling them again today and asking what's going on. Paul is also going to go over there later and see what's up. It's a simple job - they said they'd get it started and take less than a day, and they just never got around to getting it started, that's all. I'm not going to start making more of a pain in the ass of myself yet. The latest thing they told me was that it would be maybe the middle of next week. If it goes beyond that I'm going to ratchet it up some. Unfortunately next week is somewhat busy (including dinner with Phil Boyer Wednesday night) but hopefully the weather and my schedule will coincide enough to pick up the plane if they actually have it done.
 
We humans are a funny lot. When things get tough we console ourselves they could be worse. When they do get worse we tell ourselves it can only get better. Bill, where are you on the loop?
 
Don't the rules of conduct just say that I shouldn't say anything bad about Phil? :) Actually, the New England ASN reps and I are invited to dinner before the AOPA Town Meeting - it's not a personal invite...:dunno:

Hmm - good question about where I am in the loop. I think I'm in both places - things good be better, could be worse... :yinyang: I'm going to call the mechanics this afternoon to see what the latest story is....:drink:
 
Well one good thing is that they did not just pull it in the hanger and open it up and let it sit. Some shops might do that and charge you 8 hours a day for two weeks before they really start on it. I like the shop that pulls you in and starts concentrating on YOUR plane. Less chance for them to forget something or for them to overbill you...

At the same time I know you want them to get started on it and it's hard for them to finish it when it's outside.
 
And it's not just that it's not done yet (although I put a huge amount of money into an airplane that I've barely sat in!!) but that they flat out lied to me. If they had said they're very backed up and it's going to be another week I would have been annoyed, but not ****ed. But they yanked me around, told me what I wanted to hear, got my expectations up, and then dashed my hopes at the last minute. I thought I'd be sitting in my plane right now on a test flight around the airport. Instead I'm sitting here 260 miles away bitching about it...
 
Little update here: the guy who put me up in his house the night I ended up in Canandaigua just went over there to see what is going on. He said the plane is (finally) in the hangar. He knows the specific mechanic working on it and says he's pretty good. It now sounds like it actually IS going to be ready the beginning of next week. Whew...
 
BillG said:
Little update here: the guy who put me up in his house the night I ended up in Canandaigua just went over there to see what is going on. He said the plane is (finally) in the hangar. He knows the specific mechanic working on it and says he's pretty good. It now sounds like it actually IS going to be ready the beginning of next week. Whew...

Whew...what? Whew, like that was a close one? Seeing is believing. In cases like yours a wknd makes a big diff, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you get pushed back out to the ramp with some BS excuse about that AN-something something on B/O.

OTOH; mebbe one of the guys from the shop has been reading POA and thought, rut ro.

Hey, I know, all you folks going to Gastons can make a formation flyover and flour bomb the shop or drop leaflets all along your route.
 
True... And I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling after getting off the phone with the shop where they're obviously annoyed with me for calling so much and for being upset that it wasn't even started long after they said it might be done. They accused me of lying to them about when the engine was going to be back and what they told me. NOT a good scene... NOT the best customer service. I just have to wait and see what happens next...
 
Oh no! They're accusing YOU of lying to THEM? Bill, this is becoming a war of words... Before I get into that there's something else I want to ask you.


What have you been saying when you you call them? If your calls are just repeats of prior calls, then yes, I would view them as nothing more than irritating interruptions. But if each call builds upon the previous or in some manner gets you further towards the desired goal then they shouldn't have a problem. The exception to that would be if you are not waiting the required time for them to get the answer you're looking for, otherwise known as being impatient.

Back to them acusing you of lying...it doesn't matter what about, what matters is they are now on the defense. Especially important here is the relationship was already on a precarious edge. It seems it's just getting worse.

You say you'll wait and see what happens next... How long you gonna' wait? What must happen for you to decide thngs are on track? Sure, getting the engine installed would be good, but can you identify some intermediate step which would satisfy you that the work is substantially in progress? By now you've figured out you can't trust their words, but you need to establish how much work by what date would satisfy your demands for satisfactory progress.


PLAN B: If the above requirements are not met have you picked a target date after which you'll pull stakes and move on in the absence of significant progress? "Next week" is too vague; next Wednesday at 3pm is specific. 3pm still leaves you a couple of business hours in that day to close final negotiations and to make good on your final warning of collections, if need be.

(EDIT) I suggest you mail ASAP a nice letter plainly listing your demands. Don't get into who said what, keep it simple and reasonable. As far as who said what, you are keeping that log, right?
 
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I've just been touching base with them to check on progress, nothing major. Always trying to keep it friendly. When I finally realized that they had no intention of even starting work I was a bit disturbed and may have terminated a conversation slightly abruptly but I kept my cool and didn't actually hang up on them or anything. They're way out of line - I'm not THAT hard to work with!

In my line of business (computer consulting) I've dealt with a lot of clients. I know from experience that it's just as easy to have an angry client in a project that is going well technically (poor communication) as it is to have a happy client with a technical disaster (good communication). That's all I ask for - if you're not going to work on my plane, then don't tell me that you are and don't promise me unrealistic dates.

Fortunately, the guy I now know out there says good things about the mechanic who he actually SAW working on the plane. Unfortunately, the guy who is most upset with me now is the boss - there ain't no higher! Due to my schedule I can't get out there until next Thursday at the earliest, so there's plenty of time now. I have no recourse except to wait it out anyway.
 
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You make an outstanding! point about the importance of communications in contract work.

If you have schedule conflicts which prevent you from being there as required perhaps you should consider hiring a "deputy inspector". He would be your agent who is responsible solely for and to you. A retired FAA A&P/IA who still carries his badge would be ideal.
 
BillG said:
Unfortunately, the guy who is most upset with me now is the boss - there ain't no higher! Due to my schedule I can't get out there until next Thursday at the earliest, so there's plenty of time now. I have no recourse except to way it out anyway.

I have found that if it's the shop owner who is the biggest problem it is typically because of cash flow problems or something like that. They in turn are indications of a business sliding down hill. If that is the case--how would you know?--you best get your bucket of bolts out of that shop before too long.

(EDIT)Oh yeah, how familiar you with the lien laws in the state where the shop is? I understand your reasons for the wait and see, but if it were me I would stipulate a payment schedule based on task completion. And no payment until they provide me with unconditional waiver. Do not provide them with a lump sum payment. They get a stipulated progress payment only. And after all work is complete be sure to hold back a percentage until after successful inspection by your man.
 
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