Not coming home...

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
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Location
Midlothian, TX
Display Name
3Green
Home Airfield
KJWY - Mid-Way Regional
Two more people, in two separate incidents, who won't be coming home from Oshkosh. :-(

The propeller of a Navy warbird sliced into a home-built airplane on a taxiway during an airshow Sunday, killing a passenger, officials said...

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2006/jul/30/073000588.html

Crews will be back on Lake Michigan this morning to resume their search for the body of a pilot who went down with his plane....

http://www.topix.net/content/cbs/0126216027405640225916955289982266766543
 
Sad.. It's too bad really.

You have to expect accidents like this when you have an event of that scale...Is it worth it?

I'm not sure.
 
jangell said:
You have to expect accidents like this when you have an event of that scale...
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The propeller of a Navy warbird sliced into a home-built airplane on a taxiway during an airshow Sunday, killing a passenger, officials said...
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We absolutely do NOT have to expect that kind of accident. Someone wasn't paying attention for that to happen.
 
Greebo said:
We absolutely do NOT have to expect that kind of accident. Someone wasn't paying attention for that to happen.
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I agree. And we'll find out who it was after the investigation. Very sad and troubling when this type of accident happens though.

I wonder if the Avenger was doing S-turns??
 
Greebo said:
We absolutely do NOT have to expect that kind of accident. Someone wasn't paying attention for that to happen.
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Human error. It's going to happen.

An RV is a little airplane. This is a taildraggin' warbird. I can easily see how this could happen.

People make mistakes. You need to expect these kinds of things to happen. This is how you plan and prevent them.

I'm not going to say anything negative about any of the these people. I feel absolutely terrible even THINKING about what they are going through right now.

I'm not perfect. I mess up. Everyone does. This is a case where a few people messed up at the wrong time.
 
jangell said:
Sad.. It's too bad really.

You have to expect accidents like this when you have an event of that scale...Is it worth it?

I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

I don't see the point of this entire thread. Is flying dangerous? YES. If its not worth it to you to fly, stay on the ground and either get killed some other way like a traffic accident or live forever, right? :dunno:

Stay away from a fly-in becuase of an increase in planes in the air? Don't think so.
 
Anthony said:
I don't see the point of this entire thread. Is flying dangerous? YES. If its not worth it to you to fly, stay on the ground and either get killed some other way like a traffic accident or live forever, right? :dunno:

Stay away from a fly-in becuase of an increase in planes in the air? Don't think so.
Click to expand...

We learn from other's mistakes. I tell you, I thought twice before posting the thread in the first place. Is it macabre to post stories like this on our webboard? Would people prefer we just leave out such posts? Would make an interesting poll.

I didn't post it from any delight in the casualties of others... it's aviation news. Not NICE news, but we learn from both kinds.
 
Anthony said:
I don't see the point of this entire thread. Is flying dangerous? YES. If its not worth it to you to fly, stay on the ground and either get killed some other way like a traffic accident or live forever, right? :dunno:

Stay away from a fly-in becuase of an increase in planes in the air? Don't think so.
Click to expand...
I'm not one to be too paranoid when it comes to danger. I obviously don't want to get killed, but I want to have fun. I have absolutely no one that depends on me therefore I tend to do some things with a moderate risk of danger.

Either way this is a sad thing to have happen. Do I think flying is worth it? Yes. Do I think a single event costing four people their lives is worth it? I'm not sure.

If there was a magical button that said:
"Press to Start Oshkosh. Four people will be killed" ...Would you press it?

I'm sure some things will be different next year.
 
jangell said:
If there was a magical button that said:
"Press to Start Oshkosh. Four people will be killed" ...Would you press it?
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I push the button every time I wake up, or get on the highway or in the air.....

The risk of Osh Kosh is no greater than many others we face and probably a lot less risky than some.

I agree about reading the reports in order to learn from others mistakes, btw.
 
Frank Browne said:
I wonder if the Avenger was doing S-turns??
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Probably although he may simply have started rolling and didn't realize that or how close he already was to the RV ahead. When I departed we taxied for more than an hour over some fairly rough/steep terrain. I waited for the plane ahead of me to clear each of the valleys we traversed before heading downhill so I wouldn't run him over if my brakes failed. I could only hope the plane behind me did the same thing. I did comment to my passenger that I thought it would be awfully easy to run another plane over if you weren't paying close attention for the whole hour plus taxi.
 
Anthony said:
I push the button every time I wake up, or get on the highway or in the air.....
Click to expand...

No. You push a button that has a chance, not a gurantee.
 
my understanding is that the Avenger WAS doing S-turns, and was following another plane, that plane left the taxiway at an intersection and the RV scooted in front of the Avenger pilot, who was unaware of the RV even coming onto the taxiway.

What about Tom Poberezney's statement?
the incident doesn't change the success of the event
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What do y'all think about that?
 
People crash going to and fro from this thing every year. some die. im not sure why it seems everyone is making a big deal about it this year, except a couple of the fatalities actually happened at the airshow. sure it is sad, but it is a fact of life, and I doubt it will stop anyone from flying in there.
 
I think the success of a major event like that isn't determined by one or even two incidents. I'm going to sound callous here, but the fact is that people die. They die for stupid reasons and for noble ones. We seem, as a culture, to be increasingly unwilling to accept the possibility of losing even a single life as an indirect side-effect of our activities, but if we continue in that trend then the only thing we'll be allowed to do for our own protection is to stay in a soft padded room with no sharp objects around. In the grand scheme of things, one life, great or small, is not nearly as consequential as we are inclined to feel. Yes, its a tremendous personal tragedy to those who knew and loved the victims, but personal importance and societal importance are rarely the same thing.

People die. Its a tragedy that people die in stupid accidents like this, and we shouldn't accept the attitudes that lead to accidents like these. Whether the warbird wasn't paying attention or the RV got impatient doesn't matter - someone screwed up and got careless - and that reflects upon ONLY the person or persons who caused the accident.

It has no reflection at all upon the event, where the coordiantors do everything they can to make it as safe as possible, despite our best efforts to screw it up.
 
jangell said:
No. You push a button that has a chance, not a gurantee.
Click to expand...


There are no guarantees on life. Your premise is flawed.
 
Anthony said:
There are no guarantees on life. Your premise is flawed.
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Yeah there is...

... just one but its there.
 
Greebo said:
Yeah there is...

... just one but its there.
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True, but it speaks to the risks involved in the big picture. And the big picture is we ain't here long, no matter what.
 
Greebo said:
...the only thing we'll be allowed to do for our own protection is to stay in a soft padded room with no sharp objects around.
Click to expand...

A lot of that padding is treated with flame retardant chemicals. Many of those chemicals have been proven to cause cancer if one suffers long term exposure. :dunno:

C'est la guerre
 
etsisk said:
my understanding is that the Avenger WAS doing S-turns, and was following another plane, that plane left the taxiway at an intersection and the RV scooted in front of the Avenger pilot, who was unaware of the RV even coming onto the taxiway.
Click to expand...

So the plane in front of them left the taxiway so they stopped doing the S-turns? :confused:

I figured in a taildragger, you'd want to KEEP doing S-turns in case anything else came out in front of you, including animals, persons, and planes.
 
infotango said:
I don't get this.
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You can almost *count* on someone getting killed as a result of Oshkosh.

I'm just trying to look at the big picture here, I'm not saying the risk isn't worth it. It's called being open minded.
 
jangell said:
You can almost *count* on someone getting killed as a result of Oshkosh.
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The operative word is "almost". I would modify that by saying, "you can almost count that someome may get killed as a result of Osh Kosh".


I'm just trying to look at the big picture here, I'm not saying the risk isn't worth it. It's called being open minded.
Click to expand...

Yes, but in your first post on the subject you asked and then replied to your own question:

"You have to expect accidents like this when you have an event of that scale...Is it worth it?

I'm not sure."
 
jangell said:
You can almost *count* on someone getting killed as a result of Oshkosh.

I'm just trying to look at the big picture here, I'm not saying the risk isn't worth it. It's called being open minded.
Click to expand...

This may be a minor point, but I don't think anyone is killed as a result of Oshkosh. They get killed as the result of a chain of events leading to the accident. Lack of good lookout doctrine, distraction, assuming someone else id doing what they're supposed to do, etc., etc.
 
Frank Browne said:
This may be a minor point, but I don't think anyone is killed as a result of Oshkosh. They get killed as the result of a chain of events leading to the accident. Lack of good lookout doctrine, distraction, assuming someone else id doing what they're supposed to do, etc., etc.
Click to expand...
Exactly. It's not Oshkosh that's the problem. It's, as the NTSB would say, "The pilot's failure to..."
 
jangell said:
I'm not one to be too paranoid when it comes to danger. I obviously don't want to get killed, but I want to have fun. I have absolutely no one that depends on me therefore I tend to do some things with a moderate risk of danger.

Either way this is a sad thing to have happen. Do I think flying is worth it? Yes. Do I think a single event costing four people their lives is worth it? I'm not sure.

If there was a magical button that said:
"Press to Start Oshkosh. Four people will be killed" ...Would you press it?

I'm sure some things will be different next year.
Click to expand...

You ought to check the news here on the holidays about how many people get killed driving to the beach. A single event drawing a whole bunch of people. Sad facts are, lots of people going to one place, some of them won't make the round trip. Add the inherent dangers of aviation, and you'll never, ever have an incident free event of this magnitude.
 
wbarnhill said:
So the plane in front of them left the taxiway so they stopped doing the S-turns? :confused:

I figured in a taildragger, you'd want to KEEP doing S-turns in case anything else came out in front of you, including animals, persons, and planes.
Click to expand...

He probably did, but from the cockpit of many large taildraggers, your view of things close in front is still blocked unless you turn almost 90 degrees to the taxiway (at which point your wing is still blocking your view). In fact in almost any airplane there is an area ahead of the nose/spinner that cannot be seen from the cockpit and the size of that area usually increases with the size of the airplane. Unfortunately the RV pilot may have confused the forward blind spot of his airplane with the warbird's.
 
lancefisher said:
He probably did, but from the cockpit of many large taildraggers, your view of things close in front is still blocked unless you turn almost 90 degrees to the taxiway (at which point your wing is still blocking your view). In fact in almost any airplane there is an area ahead of the nose/spinner that cannot be seen from the cockpit and the size of that area usually increases with the size of the airplane. Unfortunately the RV pilot may have confused the forward blind spot of his airplane with the warbird's.
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I wonder if chromed convex fuel caps would act like those department store mirrors and let a taildragger pilot see better what's going on out in front... (or, small mirrors at the wing tips, or... hey, here's an idea... S-turns.)
 
wbarnhill said:
So the plane in front of them left the taxiway so they stopped doing the S-turns? :confused:

I figured in a taildragger, you'd want to KEEP doing S-turns in case anything else came out in front of you, including animals, persons, and planes.
Click to expand...
Huh?? No, he kept doing the S-turns, but the RV was right there and he turned into him... as I understand it.
 
Anthony said:
The operative word is "almost". I would modify that by saying, "you can almost count that someome may get killed as a result of Osh Kosh".




Yes, but in your first post on the subject you asked and then replied to your own question:

"You have to expect accidents like this when you have an event of that scale...Is it worth it?

I'm not sure."
Click to expand...

There's gonna be a certain average number of accidents and incidents per 100,000 pilot hours flown. Is there evidence of an actual increased rate per 100K at OSH or just higher media coverage and subsiquent pilot awareness?
 
My hope is that we never deal with anything like this from Gastons ever, ever ever.

So far, I think the only two problems we've had were Michael's Mags and Ron Levy's Wing, but no deaths or injuries yet.

Please God let that continue.
 
jangell said:
Human error. It's going to happen.

An RV is a little airplane. This is a taildraggin' warbird. I can easily see how this could happen.

People make mistakes. You need to expect these kinds of things to happen. This is how you plan and prevent them.

I'm not going to say anything negative about any of the these people. I feel absolutely terrible even THINKING about what they are going through right now.

I'm not perfect. I mess up. Everyone does. This is a case where a few people messed up at the wrong time.
Click to expand...

Then why are you so upset at Martin?
 
I'll throw just a bit of gasoline on the discussion here. I appreciate the posting. It reminds me why I, so far, have stayed away from big events like this one. They simply draw too many aircraft to a too small space. With that many aircraft, someone will be there who is not really competent to be there, doesn't fly a whole lot, not used to busy traffic patterns etc.

In my personal risk assessment, events like Osh and Sun and Fun, where multiple aircraft are landing at various spots on the runway at the same time, where hundreds of aircraft arrive in a small time space, and where you have to taxi for an hour to get out, are too great a risk. I watch these events, and postings, and see the odds stacking up too much.

Of course, YMMV.

Jim G
 
RV stalls on base to final - Pilot Issue
Cub ditches in Lake Michigan, apparently Pilot didnt have his flotation device on - Pilot Issue
RV and TBM dont see each other taxiing - Pilot Issue

I dont see how any of these are specifically because of the event and lots of airplanes being in a close space. Any of them could've (and do) happen throughout the year.
 
tonycondon said:
RV stalls on base to final - Pilot Issue
Cub ditches in Lake Michigan, apparently Pilot didnt have his flotation device on - Pilot Issue
RV and TBM dont see each other taxiing - Pilot Issue

I dont see how any of these are specifically because of the event and lots of airplanes being in a close space. Any of them could've (and do) happen throughout the year.
Click to expand...
1.) RV stalls on base to final - Probably all worked up about OSH..Just wanting to get on the ground. Aircraft all over. Pilot nervous. He messed up. I bet if he wouldn't have tried to come to OSH he wouldn't have been in this situation.

2.) Cub ditches in Lake Michigan - Flew to Oshkosh and just wanted to get home. Probably wouldn't be flying over lakes otherwise..But there is this really huge event and they think it's worth it.

3.) RV and TBM don't see eachother taxiing - It's HOT outside. Everyone just wants to get in the air. They are all lined for god knows how long. If they wouldn't have been at OSH they wouldn't be in this situation.

Like I said before. I'm not one to hide inside. I'm not afraid of risk. I've flown to OSH with a total of about 50 hours in my logbook at that time. I'd fly there again in a heart beat.

The fact of the matter is. If OSH wouldn't have caused all of these people to come ..They'd still be alive.
 
jangell said:
1.) RV stalls on base to final - Pilot nervous. He messed up.

2.) Cub ditches in Lake Michigan - just wanted to get home.

3.) RV and TBM don't see eachother taxiing - just wants to get in the air.
Click to expand...

Still sounds like three pilot issues to me. Poor training, poor ADM. Just cause there is this big airshow thing going on shouldnt change things, no need to hurry or take more risks.
 
tonycondon said:
Still sounds like three pilot issues to me. Poor training, poor ADM. Just cause there is this big airshow thing going on shouldnt change things, no need to hurry or take more risks.
Click to expand...

No. But when you have an event like this you will have pilots come and some of them will mess up along with some of them getting killed.
 
no argument there, but don't blame the event because the pilots mess up.
 
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