Not another "slip" question.

There is a good chance that what changed was the amount of flap available. At some point they went from 40 deg flaps to 30 deg. That would make a difference. I believe my 175 has a warning in the book about slips with flaps extended as well.....I don't recall the limitations for the 182's and 206's I flew but I think they had something about flaps and slips as well. I do know that the warning is valid and that during some types of flight its possible to blank out airflow to the elevator and rudder when the flaps are extended fully (40deg) which can cause a number of disconcerting actions. In my own experience a full slip with full flaps caused an uncontrolled pitch down at a speed near stall. Pulling the wheel back a little more stalled the plane and we did a slow spin entry as long as the controls were held in place. Pitching forward and centering the rudder pedals created a normal stall recovery. Every plane is a little different so some will and some won't when it comes to these oddities. At altitude its normally not a problem but in the pattern it can be bad.

As for DPE's and slips it should be no problem. My checkride included many slips and a landing on one wheel in the crosswind we had on our return. Examiner was happy with the performance.....of course the Taylorcraft F19 has no flaps so slips are about it for glide path control.

Frank

Believe it or not, not sure if it is legal, they put a tiny metal plate in (just saw this on Saturday, don't remember it from my checkout). What I mean is that they made the flap thing stop at 30 instead of 40. Not sure how I feel about them doing that, I understand why they did it (this is a rental), but still. I think it is a 1979 172N (with 180 hp conversion kit).
 
At what point does a skid occur? Why is a skidding stall worse than a slipping stall?

It's all about relative wind, my friend

In a skidding stall, the wings (may) be level. When the airplane stalls, tell us what will happen if the ball is burried to one side?

In a slip, the wing is down. The rudder is moved to cause the nose to rise relative to the horizon. Allegedly in a C-172 it will just bob up and down. Jesse posted a youtube somewhere on here.
 
At what point does a skid occur?
When the ball is out to the side away from the direction of turn. A slip occurs when the ball is opposite the direction of turn.

Why is a skidding stall worse than a slipping stall?
Because in a skidded turn, the the initial departure from controlled flight is a nose slice down and into the turn, and at low altitude, that can eliminate any chance of recovery before impact. In a slipped turn stall, the initial movement is a nose slice up and to the outside of the turn, and that allows recovery without significant altitude loss.
 
Believe it or not, not sure if it is legal, they put a tiny metal plate in (just saw this on Saturday, don't remember it from my checkout). What I mean is that they made the flap thing stop at 30 instead of 40. Not sure how I feel about them doing that, I understand why they did it (this is a rental), but still. I think it is a 1979 172N (with 180 hp conversion kit).

It raises the gross weight to 2450 lbs. from 2300. Or maybe 2400 from 2300. Anyway limiting the flaps to 30 allows an MGW increase.


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I thought that a Forward Slip was required in the PTS. My DPE made me show him a forward slip. Made me intentionally come in high, and slip it to lose altitude. I did well except he yelled at me to keep the nose down.

He also was a Cessna 140 guy and told me that I could slip it with full flaps. Since it is not in my POH, I did not know that before he told me. A few weeks ago I was high coming into a controlled airport and already had full flaps. I did what he said and slipped it. With full flaps in a forward slip it comes down like an elevator.

Refer to the POH and go learn to slip.
 
Believe it or not, not sure if it is legal, they put a tiny metal plate in (just saw this on Saturday, don't remember it from my checkout). What I mean is that they made the flap thing stop at 30 instead of 40. Not sure how I feel about them doing that, I understand why they did it (this is a rental), but still. I think it is a 1979 172N (with 180 hp conversion kit).
That's required by the STC (SA2196CE) in order to allow gross weight to be increased from 2,300 lb to 2,550 lb in airplanes with the 180 hp engine, as you noted.

The same mod can be done to a C-172N with the original 160 hp engine, to raise the MGW to 2,400 lb, making it the functional equivalent of a stock C-172P.
 
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That's one of the ways to land in a cross wind.

Thus part of this discussion. I was told, by my instructor that the DPE will get on me for that. He may be wrong and just needs to be corrected. It may be in the POH for the plane. I will look at the POH when I get home. I like the idea of being to keep the family jewels lined up with centerline. I am still making the centerline with a crab. I just would like to learn all the tools for practice.
 
Bottom line -- if you have flaps, you can slip. Just know what the effects may be. You can read about it in the POH. You won't find a "prohibition," however.
Every Cessna 172 factory owners manual from 1956 through 1971 said this (this is copied form the manual for the '66 C-172G):

C-172G_prohibited.jpg


Yes, I know the current TCDS only says "avoid", and the old owner's manuals don't carry the force of law ... but when people say they were told slips with full flaps were "prohibited," they're not making it up out of whole cloth.

What did Cessna's Manager of Flight Test and Aerodynamics say about this issue?
With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180, and C-172 we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner’s manuals under “Landings” reading “Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30 deg. due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle, and center of gravity loadings”. Since wing-low drift correction in crosswind landings is normally performed with a minimum flap setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the transition of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative “upwash increment” from the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although not stated in the owner’s manuals, we privately encouraged flight instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass on the information to their students. This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate, but it was thought that a pilot should be aware of its existence and know how to counteract it if it occurs close to the ground.
(Cessna — Wings for The World, by William D. Thompson, Maverick Press, 1991, p. 41, emphasis added)
You'll notice that beginning with the 1972 model year ('73 for European-built models) 172s have a larger dorsal fin. This apparently eliminated the "pitch-down" problem, and the word "prohibited" was replaced by "avoid" in the owners manuals.

However, there is also an unrelated, more benign phenomenon that Thompson described in newer models in full-flap slips: “a mild pitch ‘pumping’ motion resulting from flap outboard-end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of side-slip angle, power, and airspeed.” This really isn't a problem and it's not limited to Cessnas -- my Sport Cub does it, as well.

So although the 172L’s larger dorsal apparently solved the pitch-down issue, they kept the cautionary note in the POH because of the latter phenomenon.

Unfortunately Cessna contributed to the “end of the world” fear of slips with flaps, by not explaining the pitch-down phenomenon in the manuals.
 
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Thus part of this discussion. I was told, by my instructor that the DPE will get on me for that. He may be wrong and just needs to be corrected. It may be in the POH for the plane. I will look at the POH when I get home. I like the idea of being to keep the family jewels lined up with centerline. I am still making the centerline with a crab. I just would like to learn all the tools for practice.

If you use the technique of holding the crab to roundout, then dip the wing, that is a sideslip. You're already doing it.

There's a good youtube video I saw this weekend. Search for undaerocast and find the one on crosswinds.

It's here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5w6UEW7eM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
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I'd like to know what changed at serial number 71035 to make the placard unnecessary. I can't see any control surface movement changes.

The TCDS for anyone who wants to figure it out:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...feec0eb8625796d0069d3a9/$FILE/3A12 Rev 82.pdf
S/N 71035 was the beginning of the 1979 model year. I don't know of any mechanical change then. That was also when an "approach flap" setting of 10 degrees was approved up to 110 KIAS, but again that was just a paper change.

I wonder if the TCDS was recently amended (revision 82 is dated 12/10/2011), because the "Avoid slips with flaps extended" placard was in new 172s as recently as 2002. I have photos of panels of 172Ps and 172RGs I've flown with the placard.
 
That's required by the STC (SA2196CE) in order to allow gross weight to be increased from 2,300 lb to 2,550 lb in airplanes with the 180 hp engine, as you noted.

The same mod can be done to a C-172N with the original 160 hp engine, to raise the MGW to 2,400 lb, making it the functional equivalent of a stock C-172P.

One tiny piece of metal does all that? Thanks for the info.
 
If you use the technique of holding the crab to roundout, then dip the wing, that is a sideslip. You're already doing it.

There's a good youtube video I saw this weekend. Search for undaerocast and find the one on crosswinds.

I was not aware I am slipping when I am rounding out. It makes sense. Because I do have to kick some rudder in before touchdown to straighten out. And, some aileron into the wind. At this point the plane is being set up to stall onto the runway. Something unwanted on final. I guess what I am looking for is some practice doing this in the practice area, and then bring it to my final approach.

I will check out the video when I get home?
 
It's not just the piece of metal in the flap indicator; there's also a stop-nut that goes into the flap mechanism to keep it from going past 30 degrees.

Flap_limit_parts_e.jpg

That's more like it. I remember looking at that tiny screw thinking it would be easy to take out and get 40 back again.
 
I was able to access the POH from work. This is all I could find as far as approved maneuvers in the limitations section:

"The PiperSport is approved for normal and below listed maneuvers:
• Steep turns not exceeding 60° bank
• Lazy eights
• Chandelles
• Stalls (except whip stalls)"

Are Slips considered normal Maneuvers? There is not a placard in the airplane itself prohibiting slips. Does, this information equate, Go ahead and Slip?
 
I thought that a Forward Slip was required in the PTS.
You thought right. A forward slip to a landing is Area III, Task K, in the PP-Airplane PTS.

My DPE made me show him a forward slip. Made me intentionally come in high, and slip it to lose altitude. I did well except he yelled at me to keep the nose down.
Since the airspeed indicator isn't very accurate in a slip, it's important that you maintain your proper pitch attitude and not be fooled into pulling the nose up, which has the potential to result in what I shall say would be an "interesting" departure from controlled flight at low altitude.

He also was a Cessna 140 guy and told me that I could slip it with full flaps. Since it is not in my POH, I did not know that before he told me. A few weeks ago I was high coming into a controlled airport and already had full flaps. I did what he said and slipped it. With full flaps in a forward slip it comes down like an elevator.
...with no "deadly" oscillation, either. :D It really does work quite well, doesn't it?
 
Thus part of this discussion. I was told, by my instructor that the DPE will get on me for that. He may be wrong and just needs to be corrected. It may be in the POH for the plane. I will look at the POH when I get home. I like the idea of being to keep the family jewels lined up with centerline. I am still making the centerline with a crab. I just would like to learn all the tools for practice.
If you hold the crab to touchdown, you will land skidding the wheels sideways. That is contrary to the requirement for crosswind landings in the PTS and grounds for failure.

Touches down at or within 400 feet (120 meters) beyond a specified
point, with no drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned
with and over the runway center/landing path.
Only way to do that in a crosswind is with a slip. Nothing says you can't hold the crab until pretty close to touchdown (although the earlier you transition to a slip, the easier it is to control), but you'll have to kick the crab into a slip before tourchdown in order to meet that standard.
 
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I was able to access the POH from work. This is all I could find as far as approved maneuvers in the limitations section:

"The PiperSport is approved for normal and below listed maneuvers:
• Steep turns not exceeding 60° bank
• Lazy eights
• Chandelles
• Stalls (except whip stalls)"

Are Slips considered normal Maneuvers?
Yes, they are.

There is not a placard in the airplane itself prohibiting slips.
Further evidence that they are permitted.
Does, this information equate,
Yes.
Go ahead and Slip?
Yes -- and based on your posts, you have been anyway.
 
If you hold the crab to touchdown, you will land skidding the wheels sideways. That is contrary to the requirement for crosswind landings in the PTS and grounds for failure.
Only way to do that in a crosswind is with a slip. Nothing says you can't hold the crab until pretty close to touchdown (although the earlier you transition to a slip, the easier it is to control), but you'll have to kick the crab into a slip before tourchdown in order to meet that standard.

I have made this mistake once before and not had the plane straight. The castering wheel can make for vibration filled event. I have not done that anytime recently. I hope I have got beyond that point now.
 
At what point does a skid occur? Why is a skidding stall worse than a slipping stall?

Slip - rudder is applied in an "anti-yaw" direction - you are preventing a turn.

Skid - rudder is applied in a "pro-yaw" direction (too much rudder, ball to the outside).

Spins are largely a result of yaw when you stall.

Guess which is more likely to result in a spin - slip or skid.
 
Every Cessna 172 factory owners manual from 1956 through 1971 said this (this is copied form the manual for the '66 C-172G):

C-172G_prohibited.jpg


Yes, I know the current TCDS only says "avoid", and the old owner's manuals don't carry the force of law ... but when people say they were told slips with full flaps were "prohibited," they're not making it up out of whole cloth.

Good info, but pilots also believed in getting it on the step, too.

OWT die hard....
 
Slip - rudder is applied in an "anti-yaw" direction - you are preventing a turn.

Skid - rudder is applied in a "pro-yaw" direction (too much rudder, ball to the outside).

Spins are largely a result of yaw when you stall.

Guess which is more likely to result in a spin - slip or skid.

Would a stall in a slip recover as fast as an approach to landing stall?
Skids sound like an exciting aerobatic maneuver.
 
Would a stall in a slip recover as fast as an approach to landing stall?
Skids sound like an exciting aerobatic maneuver.

To quote the 2004 edition of the "Airplane Flying Handbook" published by yea olde FAA page 8-11...

Unlike skids, however, if an airplane in a slip
is made to stall, it displays very little of the yawing
tendency that causes a skidding stall to develop into a
spin. The airplane in a slip may do little more than tend
to roll into a wings level attitude. In fact, in some​
airplanes stall characteristics may even be improved.

(There may be a newer edition, but this was handy on my hard drive)

A stall while skidding can result in a spin if you are not quick enough on the recovery. Fun for one, fun for all. Just have enough altitude.
 
Good info, but pilots also believed in getting it on the step, too.

OWT die hard....
But "getting it on the step," as far as I know, wasn't in the manufacturers' owners manuals. Back in the day, those little books were the most authoritative source available.

... After all, internet message boards hadn't been invented yet!

:D
 
I wonder if the TCDS was recently amended (revision 82 is dated 12/10/2011), because the "Avoid slips with flaps extended" placard was in new 172s as recently as 2002. I have photos of panels of 172Ps and 172RGs I've flown with the placard.

It's also in the Tecnam Eaglets I fly...or at least was...one of the CFIs I've flown with vowed to get rid of them...which leads me to suspect that it might be people who were trained in the 172 who automatically assume that the "no slips with full flaps" applies to any airplane. Then these people go put placards in every plane they fly. Just speculation, though.
 
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