Not a good way to start......

Mike Smith

Mike Smith

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PoA Supporter
Joined
May 15, 2011
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2,627
Location
Prattville, Alabama
Display Name
Fresh Prince of PrattVegas
Home Airfield
1A9
So, I passed my check ride last Monday, the 8th. My very supportive, but sensitive to motion sickness wife asks me Saturday morning to take her and my 10 year old son flying. Looking out the door, it was a beautiful day. The runway at the home drome is 9/27 and the wind was 360@6. Now a little back story, I didn't do much crosswind landing during my training, there just wasn't much wind. I had one day with a lot of wind and we did about 15 landings that day. It was 200@15G20 that day. Now, back to the story. I know 6kts isn't much, so we head to the airport. We get there and the wind is 010@8. My first mistake, a thought crossed my mind that this was more than I wanted to try with them in the airplane, I dismissed it and we blasted off.

The take off was interesting, it was very gusty as I got over the trees. However, after that it was smooth and a good flight. We just did a local tour sightseeing. We had plans for later and headed back after about a half hour. I tune in the AWOS. the wind is now 360@10G15. This is a lot for me and I get a little concerned. This is where I started making mistakes. I start my approach and do it just like I always do it. I did think that I needed to come in a little faster and I added 5 for the gust factor. First mistake, I went full flaps. I was struggling keeping the centerline. I should have gone around then. Second mistake, I didn't go around right then and continued drifting to the left and I just abandoned the idea of center and settled for asphalt. When I dropped below the treeline I started sinking like a rock, I should have gone around then. Third mistake, I added some power and tried to drag it in. Finally, I flared really high and dropped it in, hard, well left of center. It was my worst landing, ever.

I called my instructor later in the day and set up some more time to work on crosswind landing. To my wife's credit, she says she will still fly with me, however, I won't take her or anyone else up till I get some more crosswind landings done. I don't know what I'm asking here, constructive criticism I guess. I think I know the mistakes, and there were many.
 
Smart lady,practice goes a long way on landings. Keep trying ,you will get better.
 
mikeinbama said:
I called my instructor later in the day and set up some more time to work on crosswind landing. To my wife's credit, she says she will still fly with me, however, I won't take her or anyone else up till I get some more crosswind landings done. I don't know what I'm asking here, constructive criticism I guess. I think I know the mistakes, and there were many.
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Working with CFI and ensuring you are confident before accepting pax again are the correct steps, pilot. You are responsible.

Constructive criticism? The aircraft does what you tell it to do. Remember the proper technique and practice it. Gust factor is 1/2 the difference between the steady state and the max gust. Trees and buildings can shield the wind and one has to be ready for that shear. Learn to look at the windsocks while on approach or overflying.
 
Welcome to the real world. Weather happens, send all of our landings are not pretty. You handled it, your wife isn't scared away, and you have a plan to make it better.

Sounds like success to me.
 
Remember, the goal is to "miss the centerline closer." That that's time.
 
No reason not to land on the upwind side of the runway either . . .

did you try slipping to the landing? Usually when you are actively 'pressing' the airplane into the prevailing crosswind you have much finer control - then you can land the upwind wheel first and pivot it into the centerline. It requires practice and decent stick skills, but its like riding a bicycle . .
 
That is part of expanding your limits.
Every flight that expands them a little will contain a bit of discomfort and most will be unintentional meaning unplanned deviations from the norm.

Doesn't matter if you went around or landed on the left side or in the grass.
What matters is you are doing a postmortem and thinking about what you did right, wrong, and what you could have done differently.

Taking it a step further by getting a CFI involved is great as well.

You are piloting correctly.

Good Work!
 
The only constructive criticism I can offer is to recognize the links in the chain earlier rather than later. That will come with more time behind the prop.
 
This is good stuff. Thanks all. I tend to rough myself up a little more than necessary some times. This certainly got my attention though.
 
Sounds like you were trying to line it up strait vs crabbing it in. Feels unusual but a quick stab on the rudder right before tough down and you will look like a pro. Cross winds suck.
 
Clark1961 said:
Working with CFI and ensuring you are confident before accepting pax again are the correct steps, pilot. You are responsible.
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+1

While I was excited to have my shiny new license, I felt I learned more about flying in the months after the checkride than I did before. Mostly because I now knew how to identify the weak areas and had the brass/sand to ask the CFI to help me with it. Crosswind landings were one of the bigger areas for me.

Constructive criticism? The aircraft does what you tell it to do. Remember the proper technique and practice it. Gust factor is 1/2 the difference between the steady state and the max gust. Trees and buildings can shield the wind and one has to be ready for that shear. Learn to look at the windsocks while on approach or overflying.
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Good points there.

I'll add that flying the full/normal/proper landing pattern can give you some valuable time and information to make a good landing.

For example, on downwind, are you being blown into or away from the runway? At what rate? How much crab angle is needed to correct? Even with your normal IAS, how fast is the ground speed?

All of that can be used by that grey matter computer between your ears to set up a proper base and landing leg. And when on final, use the info about crab angle and being blow in or away from the runway to get that centerline acquired and maintained.

As they say, license to learn, and now it's time to go practice!
 
Some of the hard landing is likely due to carrying more weight than you were probably used to, causing a somewhat faster sink rate. Been there, done that with the same result, shortly after I got my PP-ASEL.

Might want to go up with some sand bags (or more tolerant passengers) to practice.

Jeff
 
Mike, don't sweat it. I mean, yes, it wasn't perfect but you and your passengers survived and you didn't bend something.
The best part is that you RECOGNIZED the need for improvement and already scheduled time with your CFI. Great step.
As PICs, we need to identify problems and try to fix them, that's how we eliminate problems.
FWIW, my CFI on my very last lesson on a windy and gusty day, took me to an airport with a crosswind runway and we practiced landings with a 70-degree crosswind that was at the limit of the airplane's capability. I found out quickly that it was still within my own capability and I liked that, I felt more confident afterwards.

Good luck with your crosswinds and remember, fly the plane all the way to the ground.
 
any-landing-you-can-walk-away-from-is-a-good-one.jpg
 
I'd like to mention that your post-mortem may have inadvertantly taught some misinformation. But a related anecdote first.

I ride sportbikes. I was riding with a guy who had very little experience in an area that I use for practice because of its repetitive nature, it loops around and you get to do it again, no traffic lights.

I was in front and about 1/2 mile away I see something very strange but it takes more than 1/4 mile to notice the addition of a traffic light and a stopped vehicle. Once I processed the change, I got on the brake to haul my speed down. Conscious of the following rider who was well behind and nowhere in sight I moved over to give him a little more room - 6 feet worth, the length of a bike.

Whatddya know, he ran into the back of the car at the traffic light. When we discussed post mortem, he insisted that he should have dowshifted gears and he would have avoided hitting the car. I asked him about the use of the brake, which he discounted. I could not get him to change focus from downshifting, which as an experienced rider I can effortlessly brake, downshift agressively all while blipping the throttle to rev match. It looks and sounds cool - to him. But the fundamental that he missed was BRAKING, and as a result I suggested that he is improperly informed about what each control on the bike does. I had hoped that he thought more about it. I checked in on him a couple weeks later and it still hadnt sunk in.

I recommend that the OP search online regarding the debates of using full vs partial flaps. He may find that he will have to try each to see if his ideas match the performance expectation. I will leave it there, because as soon as I hit the post button, folks will argue either way. I have made up my mind. I am squarely in the full flap camp.
 
Jaybird, I took your advice and did some research. It seems to be a crap shoot of opinions. From none, some and full flaps to crab or side slip. So, I still don't know what I don't know, however, I will keep looking for opportunities to get better. I will also say that I think the answers is, it depends.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Some of the hard landing is likely due to carrying more weight than you were probably used to, causing a somewhat faster sink rate. Been there, done that with the same result, shortly after I got my PP-ASEL.

Might want to go up with some sand bags (or more tolerant passengers) to practice.

Jeff
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:yes: Excellent point. When I returned to the cockpit after a ten year hiatus, most of my flights were with a CFI and solo. A few months later, I took two family members up on a relatively calm day, but dropped it in a little hard. The extra landing weight caught me by surprise.
 
Fly with your CFI if you can get an appropriately windy day. Otherwise go fly by yourself and maybe with a buddy. No one has mentioned it but passengers cause stress, especially when you are freshly licensed. More dual isn't really the answer, the answer is more real pic time. Yes I know dual is loggable pic time for him now. That isn't real experience building time.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Fly with your CFI if you can get an appropriately windy day. Otherwise go fly by yourself and maybe with a buddy. No one has mentioned it but passengers cause stress, especially when you are freshly licensed. More dual isn't really the answer, the answer is more real pic time. Yes I know dual is loggable pic time for him now. That isn't real experience building time.
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Greg, this is exactly what my instructor said. He said when we have a really scuzzy day we will go, other wise, I should just go bang out some landings.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Fly with your CFI if you can get an appropriately windy day. Otherwise go fly by yourself and maybe with a buddy. No one has mentioned it but passengers cause stress, especially when you are freshly licensed. More dual isn't really the answer, the answer is more real pic time. Yes I know dual is loggable pic time for him now. That isn't real experience building time.
Click to expand...

Solo night XC was my thing. The kind greater than 51nm (yes, I know it's 50, but why cut it close).
 
Hank S said:
Welcome to the real world. Weather happens, send all of our landings are not pretty. You handled it, your wife isn't scared away, and you have a plan to make it better.

Sounds like success to me.
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+1 from me.
 
Meh...You made some mistakes, but the important thing is that you recognized them and seeked some recurrent training to try to better yourself. The same can't be said for quite a few pilots out there.
 
Keep at it!

I would recommend loading to gross and near the aft limit using your CFI and pilot type pax. You will find it handles differently. I found out with my family the first time...not recommended.
 
Go around! Especially in a bad X-wind. If you can't hold centerline, that's your first and should be last indicator. Try it again.

Or land it in the grass somewhere on the field direct into the wind if you can. I've done it. They won't arrest you. Obviously, It helps to have tundras for this.

I won't (can't) bring our C-180 in with full flaps in a BAD X-WIND. We're talking bad x-winds here, not just light winds with gusts. I've learned this from experience. You have to fly it on. I can't hold centerline with a 20knot+/90 degree X-wind and the barn doors out. :rolleyes2:
 
Be prepared that no matter how hard you train, this will probably not be the last time you do a not very pretty landing with pax watching. My most memorable landing with a friend riding along was about 2 years after getting my ticket, on Mackinac Island. I went around twice before finally managing to get all three wheels on terra firma. The wind was only about 15 kts but was literally coming from all directions. The landing was, let's just say, not smooth. :hairraise: ;)

And yes, she flew with me again after that.
 
Being self-critical is important, but you are probably more critical than your passengers :). It's good you want to practice some more with an instructor, but you don't always need one to find your groove.

This worked for me YMMV: Go fly to a local airport with multiple runways and do cross wind low passes, only concerning yourself with holding centerline at ~50', then recover and go around. Don't worry about touching down initially, get comfort with holding centerline without crabbing. Then take the next step. I did this a few times and really started getting comfortable with the wing down/rudder requirements. The benefit of this is by taking the actual landing part out of the question, you really focus on the important part, it's great go-around practice too.

The last trip I had with another passenger, who was a rated pilot, they commented on how well my ability to hold centerline and set down softly was. It's all in the practice.

Ohh, also worth doing some purposeful high and hot and low and slow work too. By practicing the varients, if you find yourself in a position like this it will be practiced habit on what to do.
 
Live and learn. There's a reason trainers have stout landing gear. Anyone who tells you he hasn't taken advantage of them is a liar.

Question, with a direct crosswind, why do you need to add any gust factor?
 
Lindberg said:
Question, with a direct crosswind, why do you need to add any gust factor?
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You wouldn't if the gusts were always oriented as direct crosswinds.

But that doesn't happen much. Usually, there is some kind of circulation associated with a gust, perhaps superimposed on a steady crosswind.

So, if I get a gust momentarily in the tailwind direction, I have a problem.
 
Lindberg said:
Live and learn. There's a reason trainers have stout landing gear. Anyone who tells you he hasn't taken advantage of them is a liar.

Question, with a direct crosswind, why do you need to add any gust factor?
Click to expand...

Gust factor is for....wait for it..... For gusts.:D

X winds do not by default have gusts, but winds in nature are usually not steady state. There is a threshold for gusts in a Wx report. Bonus points if you can tell us what that threshold is and cite the chapter and verse of the source.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Gust factor is for....wait for it..... For gusts.:D

X winds do not by default have gusts, but winds in nature are usually not steady state. There is a threshold for gusts in a Wx report. Bonus points if you can tell us what that threshold is and cite the chapter and verse of the source.
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I know what gusts are. I also thought I knew why we increase final approach speed in gusty wind. But my understanding of the purpose would not apply with a direct crosswind.
 
Lindberg said:
I know what gusts are. I also thought I knew why we increase final approach speed in gusty wind. But my understanding of the purpose would not apply with a direct crosswind.
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Correct. Applying extra speed is just a precaution for transient wind shear. However most of our light planes handle mild shear ok.
 
Lindberg said:
I know what gusts are. I also thought I knew why we increase final approach speed in gusty wind. But my understanding of the purpose would not apply with a direct crosswind.
Click to expand...

Then, you don't know what gusts are.

Gusts do not have to be in the same direction as prevailing wind. In fact, common gust patterns have wind blowing in all directions, depending on where you are.
 
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