NORDO CAP plane

MAKG1 said:
Well, we do fly in three dimensions. Not breaking right is sometimes the right solution.

Ever gone bike riding in a crowd? Notice what happens when someone tries to get out of your way?
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You're not riding a bike in a crowd, you're flying a plane on a converging head on collision course with another aircraft.

If you find yourself in that situation, the other guy breaks right, you ether keep going while debating what is the safest move, or God forbid break left, NTSB is going to be painting you in not the best light, and if it turns out poorly, I'm sure the lawyers are going to end up having the family of the guy you kill living in your house, eating your food and driving your car, because you didn't follow a basic avoidance rule that every pre solo student is taught, and your family is going to live with the fact that you died because you didn't follow basic saftey rules and you took some poor SOB out with you.


Or just turn right when converging head on. :dunno:
 
James331 said:
Where are you guys getting anything about just departed or phase of flight???

If two aircraft are in the sky, where ever, for whatever reason, and they find themself head on with another aircraft --> break right <-- it's not complicated, it's written in very simple English and does not require any further reading into it.
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Yeah, no argument there. I'm just saying, if the CAP plane never had to deviate right to avoid a collision, has the violation of aircraft on final right of way rule occurred?
 
So OP, what happened? Did the NORDO CAP guy just continue and land after you took off? Also, wondering what happened. After. Did he stay there? Or take off again? Which runway did he use for takeoff?
 
MAKG1 said:
What is needed is situational awareness, and the OP blew that.
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Not that you care, but I completely disagree with you. The OP taxied to the runway in use at an uncontrolled field. Good SA. They then scanned for traffic prior to departing. Good SA. Approaching rotation speed he spots the plane. Good SA. Maybe it was hazy, maybe the cap plane flew a flat approach with no landing lights, who knows but I don't know a pilot alive that has picked up every plane every time visually that "they should". As a pilot and controller I've issued and been issued traffic that surprises me when I or the pilot is finally able to pick up visually. Then in my opinion the OP made the safest/best decision to continue and turn to avoid resolving the conflict in the shortest time possible.
 
One thing I can say about this airport is that it is in mountainous terrain, not like the Rockies though, and the airport is on top of a ridge. Been a long time but I think it is around 4-5000' maybe. Not many turn offs, maybe one midfield and the two ends of the runway from what I can recall. IOW not a lot of options for a departing plane unless they want to go 4 wheeling over the side of that ridge.
 
DavidWhite said:
CAP apologists are out in force today
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What, exactly, did the CAP aircraft do wrong? He clearly had a radio problem, but aside from that, the OP has provided no details that point in that direction. No "apologist" needed. Just replace "CAP" with "taildragger" and see if it makes a difference, if it does, you've found your bias.

Hey, I've landed at a nontowered airfield in a CAP aircraft with a NORDO Caravan launching at me with a tailwind, while I was on pretty short final. It's fairly likely to happen again tomorrow -- the jumper dumper there is notorious for launching against traffic NORDO with blinders on, and we all know about it and keep an eye out. So, remind me, who is in the wrong there? And what relevance does the CAP aircraft have, aside from lighting up like a Christmas tree a lot better than a generic rental? I've seen him launch at gliders, too, and then climb above them, which is a whole lot worse. I can get out of his way. Fortunately, it's a 4500 foot runway so I can see him coming from more than a mile off. I'll seldom make a longer final than 1/2 mile. Never had to fly an approach in there, and I won't do a practice one there because of that Caravan.
 
Which DZ?

You should post something here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi

Or talk to the DZO, if he's a pilot I'm sure he'll listen, best to not make stupid saftey ripples for no reason in the DZ world, no benifit and lots of possible draw backs.
 
DavidWhite said:
CAP apologists are out in force today
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Don't worry the CAP haters will be here later. :)

(Which has always been stupid. Pilot is PIC, the organization has little to do with it other than folks recognize the paint job. It's like Delta jokes about light chop.)
 
denverpilot said:
Don't worry the CAP haters will be here later. :)
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Yea like that one guy that got delayed that one time(because he is so hugely important...) because the cadet was improperly trained and thought he was doing his job properly and now ******* to no end about how bad his vagina hurts anytime someone mentions the civil air patrol.

You mean haters like that ? lol
 
jaybee said:
Yea like that one guy that got delayed that one time(because he is so hugely important...) because the cadet was improperly trained and thought he was doing his job properly and now ******* to no end about how bad his vagina hurts anytime someone mentions the civil air patrol.

You mean haters like that ? lol
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Hey, he was in a hurry! Haha.
 
Wondering if some of you are married...:)
 
MAKG1 said:
What, exactly, did the CAP aircraft do wrong? He clearly had a radio problem, but aside from that, the OP has provided no details that point in that direction. No "apologist" needed. Just replace "CAP" with "taildragger" and see if it makes a difference, if it does, you've found your bias.

Hey, I've landed at a nontowered airfield in a CAP aircraft with a NORDO Caravan launching at me with a tailwind, while I was on pretty short final. It's fairly likely to happen again tomorrow -- the jumper dumper there is notorious for launching against traffic NORDO with blinders on, and we all know about it and keep an eye out. So, remind me, who is in the wrong there? And what relevance does the CAP aircraft have, aside from lighting up like a Christmas tree a lot better than a generic rental? I've seen him launch at gliders, too, and then climb above them, which is a whole lot worse. I can get out of his way. Fortunately, it's a 4500 foot runway so I can see him coming from more than a mile off. I'll seldom make a longer final than 1/2 mile. Never had to fly an approach in there, and I won't do a practice one there because of that Caravan.
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If you're not talking about C83, I'll eat my hat.
 
MetalCloud said:
Oh I know. And maybe I'm the only pilot on this board that hasn't spotted every plane in the sky ever in VFR conditions.

I don't know the length of the runway. But in my plane, I'd be rotating and getting out of there. And what if I lock up or something and dude on final doesn't see me because he can't work a radio and possibly a landing light because he's distracted on the radio situation. Who knows.

I only know what I can control. And in that situation, I have more control finishing rotation and climbing out of the way. Being safe is better than being compliant here.
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Of course no one wants his tombstone to read, "I was right." And you do what you need to survive in the moment. But afterwards, the right-of-way rules tell us who was right and who was wrong. It's still not clear to me that there was a hazardous situation, since the landing plane was allegedly on a one-mile final when the OP departed, but if there was a hazardous situation, it was created by the OP and his son and the OP is responsible for it. So I'm just surprised that your slinging epithets like "jackass" at the pilot who isn't here to defend himself, but not at the OP. Not saying I enjoy name calling, but I enjoy hypocrisy even less.
 
Had the same thing happen several years ago and can tell you that spotting an aircraft aproaching head on is very hard to do. Just as I rotated I thought I saw a thin black line. Too late to shut down I went up and rolled right and anounced to the aircraft getting ready to launch behind me to clear the runway I hought I saw something coming in. Just then a light came on ahead of me when he dropped his gear. It was a Pilatus who was nordo. When I anounced he replied that he was taliking but four other aircraft dis not hear him either. I am sure he had a radio set wrong but at the end of the day nothing got bent, no one got hurt and we all learned to be even more carefull. Shocked the crap out of me how hard he was to see when head on.
 
Lindberg said:
Of course no one wants his tombstone to read, "I was right." And you do what you need to survive in the moment. But afterwards, the right-of-way rules tell us who was right and who was wrong. It's still not clear to me that there was a hazardous situation, since the landing plane was allegedly on a one-mile final when the OP departed, but if there was a hazardous situation, it was created by the OP and his son and the OP is responsible for it. So I'm just surprised that your slinging epithets like "jackass" at the pilot who isn't here to defend himself, but not at the OP. Not saying I enjoy name calling, but I enjoy hypocrisy even less.
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In my opinion landing with a tailwind on a runway where other planes are taking off towards you is a jackass move. Especially with radios not active. Legal sure. But I think it's silly. I'll sling it to the CAP guy and to the jumper dumper that MAKG1 was referring to. I fail to see how I'm being a hypocrite.

If the other pilot was here to defend himself I wouldn't change my opinions or anything I've said so far. And I don't think the OP did any jackassery. As I said before, I would have done the same for safety.

I have no skin in this game. I don't know any of the posters. I don't know anything about CAP and I really don't care. It's just an interesting and potentially scary situation.
 
The OP seemed a little better balanced than the follow ons; it wasn't that close, or dangerous, and like someone said, maybe the guy on final had a mis-tuned freq, etc.
CAP pilots are about the same mix as the rest of GA, in experience. And ratio of butt-heads. Certainly no worse, and also no reason (or evidence) they're any better. . .
 
MetalCloud said:
In my opinion landing with a tailwind on a runway where other planes are taking off towards you is a jackass move. Especially with radios not active. Legal sure. But I think it's silly. I'll sling it to the CAP guy and to the jumper dumper that MAKG1 was referring to. I fail to see how I'm being a hypocrite.

If the other pilot was here to defend himself I wouldn't change my opinions or anything I've said so far. And I don't think the OP did any jackassery. As I said before, I would have done the same for safety.

I have no skin in this game. I don't know any of the posters. I don't know anything about CAP and I really don't care. It's just an interesting and potentially scary situation.
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Where are you getting the idea that he was landing with a tailwind? I just reread the OP's two posts in this thread, and he didn't actually say that. He said it was a "fairly light crosswind," but he didn't say which runway it was favoring, if any.
 
CAP pilots are held to the same standard as any other pilot. They don't get any special training in basic flying skills. So, despite what some of them might think, they are essentially the same as non-CAP pilots. There's no reason to think that CAP pilots are better or worse that non-CAP pilots of comparable experience.

I don't see anything CAP specific about this scenario. The exact same thing can happen with a non CAP pilot (and has, many times). Lessons here are:
* be careful when wind is light enough that there isn't only one obvious choice of runway
* don't expect that everyone is on the radio (or on the correct frequency if they are on the radio)

Any competent pilot already knows that. This situation sucks but it happens and will happen again. If you've never been on the wrong frequency by mistake you're probably not a very experienced pilot. This story is a sucky situation but there is nothing new here.
 
Palmpilot said:
Where are you getting the idea that he was landing with a tailwind? I just reread the OP's two posts in this thread, and he didn't actually say that. He said it was a "fairly light crosswind," but he didn't say which runway it was favoring, if any.
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He said local traffic had been using 23 so I'm assuming that's the favored runway.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
CAP pilots are held to the same standard as any other pilot. They don't get any special training in basic flying skills. So, despite what some of them might think, they are essentially the same as non-CAP pilots. There's no reason to think that CAP pilots are better or worse that non-CAP pilots of comparable experience.

I don't see anything CAP specific about this scenario. The exact same thing can happen with a non CAP pilot (and has, many times). Lessons here are:
* be careful when wind is light enough that there isn't only one obvious choice of runway
* don't expect that everyone is on the radio (or on the correct frequency if they are on the radio)

Any competent pilot already knows that. This situation sucks but it happens and will happen again. If you've never been on the wrong frequency by mistake you're probably not a very experienced pilot. This story is a sucky situation but there is nothing new here.
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Well said.

I always choose to overfly the field first, even if I'm very familiar with it. Maybe that would have helped. Who knows. Enough conjecture.

For the record I once had my volume down. So I'm certainly not any super pilot status. Like I said before I know nothing about CAP or CAP pilots and don't really care to. It could've been sully or Yeager and I'd still sing the same tune. It's a pilot. That it.
 
MetalCloud said:
For the record I once had my volume down. So I'm certainly not any super pilot status.
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It's okay if you're not a CAP pilot.

If you fly their airplanes, the entire national organization is at fault for all of your mistakes.

You should see the damage a twelve year old on an airport ramp during an air show can cause to the organization'a credibility. It's all one kid's fault.

;-)
 
MetalCloud said:
So OP, what happened? Did the NORDO CAP guy just continue and land after you took off? Also, wondering what happened. After. Did he stay there? Or take off again? Which runway did he use for takeoff?
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He continued and landed, I don't know if he took off again, we left the pattern and contacted approach for flight following to Athens. I think he took off from 23 when he left earlier.
 
Lindberg said:
Of course no one wants his tombstone to read, "I was right." And you do what you need to survive in the moment. But afterwards, the right-of-way rules tell us who was right and who was wrong. It's still not clear to me that there was a hazardous situation, since the landing plane was allegedly on a one-mile final when the OP departed, but if there was a hazardous situation, it was created by the OP and his son and the OP is responsible for it. So I'm just surprised that your slinging epithets like "jackass" at the pilot who isn't here to defend himself, but not at the OP. Not saying I enjoy name calling, but I enjoy hypocrisy even less.
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I don't think it was a hazardous situation, we had looked and announced our departure, noticed the other airplane as we reached rotation speed, he was a mile or so our on final opposite direction. We continued the takeoff and made a turn to avoid the traffic. The only reason I mentioned CAP was I assumed they would be a little more conscious of radio work and traffic patterns than the average pilot, it wasn't to slam CAP. My daughter asked me today at lunch, if something had happened, who would have been at fault. I smiled and said it wouldn't really matter at that point. :eek:
I wanted this to be an informational post, not a fight over CAP, but I guess a lot of these threads turn out this way. :D
 
mtuomi said:
If you're not talking about C83, I'll eat my hat.
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Don't worry, your hat is safe.

He didn't launch at me personally yesterday, but he did launch over a 172 who had stopped OVER the hold short line on 30. 172 announced taking off 30, Caravan said he was going on 12, and he did, in that order. 172 stopped short and the Caravan went over him. I was maybe 100 feet from the 172 off the taxiway on foot, assisting glider ops (with a handheld).

That one is not a right of way issue as both airplanes were taking off, but it really isn't OK to do that. I suppose I should be grateful he actually used the radio.... and fortunately, that's a fairly long runway.

The thing is, jets use that runway, too. A Hawker landed yesterday while we were there, and the Patriots run training flights regularly. They don't cause the same issues. Not even close. A few weeks ago, I watched one of the L39s try to squeeze into the pattern between all the student pilots, and had a hell of a time. The spam cans really should have made a hole for him, especially after the second go-around. Or just used rwy 5 for their touch'n'goes (wind was dead calm). The poor L39 pilot was a class act through it all, though that had to be expensive.
 
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