Non-towered airport, military (Navy) helicopters, me (student fixed wing), traffic pattern question

[SaltH2OHokie]

Yesterday I went to do solo pattern work and found my company in the pattern to be a Navy CH53 doing touch n go's.

He was flying a right pattern, which I understand is the convention/option for a helicopter, but I was worried that trying to mix in with him would be like a big airborne version of "crossfire" that I wasn't prepared to play as a very new solo pilot, plus any wake/rotorwash concerns that may or may not have been present...so I radioed and explained that I was a student pilot that wanted to do pattern work, but would prefer to wait until they were done, so how many more were they planning? They politely asked if 2 more worked for me, which given their size and likely ability to outgun me, I told them "sounds great".

My question is this, an inbound plane for a full stop landing joined the RH pattern with the helicopter...I thought I was supposed to fly a standard pattern...which is it...or is it an either/or thing?

Either way was sort of neat watching them do their thing from 50ft away. That's a big machine.

 

[flyingron]

Understand that the regs just say that the turns in the vicinity of the airport must be done to the left unless indications are given that they should be made to the right. The helicopter is obliged to avoid the "flow" of fixed wing aircraft at the nontowered airport. The right of way rules give no preference to those "in the pattern." The traffic pattern just amounts to a very good "best practice."

Understand the most important rule is to not collide or otherwise do something that will risk such. It matters not who might have the right of way. Aviation doesn't have the nautical principle of a privileged vessel. Everybody is required to take whatever action they need to be safe.

To answer your question, the aircraft should not have been flying the right-hand pattern (unless you have indicators that say RH traffic is in effect). Still, as you noticed, you have to be vigilant against people doing legitimate things (the helicopter in the other pattern, people doing straight in approaches) and people doing stupid things (the guy flying the wrong pattern).

 

[tspear]

Helicopters fly a pattern opposite of fixed wing. You mostly need to be aware of rotor wash, and if they are landing on the runway or next to it.

Tim

 

[Ravioli]

First off -- talking to them and clear intentions was the best thing.

I would have done the normal pattern (in your case left) and kept up with the normal calls. As long as your both talking it should work out fine.

My basis for the opinion? When I'm at towered airports the rotor guys always seem to be in opposite pattern than the fixed wing guys. They also often do taxiway landings rather than 'wasting' the runway.

 

[tspear]

Understand that the regs just say that the turns in the vicinity of the airport must be done to the left unless indications are given that they should be made to the right. The helicopter is obliged to avoid the "flow" of fixed wing aircraft at the nontowered airport. The right of way rules give no preference to those "in the pattern." The traffic pattern just amounts to a very good "best practice."

That is for fixed wing. Rotor aircraft are RH pattern by default, or opposite fixed wing. Not sure of the regulation, but I know that is the practice. Multiple heli pilots have told me this, and I saw it a lot in the DC area.

Tim

 

[Clark1961]

It's good that you are aware that operating around helos requires a bit of consideration. There is video around somewhere of a Cirrus going inverted at low altitude when it hit the rotor wash from a Blackhawk.

There is a sticky in the Flight Following section that was written by a helicopter pilot to help us seized wing drivers understand what those rotary wing driving idiots are doing.

Always stick with left traffic unless ATC, visual indicator, AF/D (whatever it's called now), or chart says otherwise. Helicopters are supposed to avoid interfering with fixed wing traffic so they will frequently do their own thing...plus the pilots sit on the wrong side.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That is for fixed wing. Rotor aircraft are RH pattern by default, or opposite fixed wing. Not sure of the regulation, but I know that is the practice. Multiple heli pilots have told me this, and I saw it a lot in the DC area.

Tim

Think of where the PIC sits and it makes a lot of sense. Standard PIC seat for fixed wing is left seat. Left pattern gives you the best view of the runway in the pattern.

For a helo, the PIC is typically in the right seat, so right traffic is the preferred pattern.

 

[Matthew]

There is video around somewhere of a Cirrus going inverted at low altitude when it hit the rotor wash from a Blackhawk.

Here it is:

We have a lot of CH-47s where I fly, I saw this video and now am extra vigilant when they hover taxi around the airport.

 

[tspear]

Think of where the PIC sits and it makes a lot of sense. Standard PIC seat for fixed wing is left seat. Left pattern gives you the best view of the runway in the pattern.

For a helo, the PIC is typically in the right seat, so right traffic is the preferred pattern.

Yup. But I know of no regulation about it.

Tim

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yesterday I went to do solo pattern work and found my company in the pattern to be a Navy CH53 doing touch n go's.

He was flying a right pattern, which I understand is the convention/option for a helicopter, but I was worried that trying to mix in with him would be like a big airborne version of "crossfire" that I wasn't prepared to play as a very new solo pilot, plus any wake/rotorwash concerns that may or may not have been present...so I radioed and explained that I was a student pilot that wanted to do pattern work, but would prefer to wait until they were done, so how many more were they planning? They politely asked if 2 more worked for me, which given their size and likely ability to outgun me, I told them "sounds great".

My question is this, an inbound plane for a full stop landing joined the RH pattern with the helicopter...I thought I was supposed to fly a standard pattern...which is it...or is it an either/or thing?

Either way was sort of neat watching them do their thing from 50ft away. That's a big machine.

You were wise to wait it out, especially as a student.

An H-53 is not something to be messed with.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

Thanks for the replies. I was aware that helicopters flew the opposite pattern, and thought I was correct in that I needed to be flying the standard pattern, but the inbound plane jumping in the opposite pattern threw me for a loop.

 

[tspear]

Thanks for the replies. I was aware that helicopters flew the opposite pattern, and thought I was correct in that I needed to be flying the standard pattern, but the inbound plane jumping in the opposite pattern threw me for a loop.

You did it correct (the other plane was wrong), especially the communication aspect, and waiting on the heli to leave was a smart choice.

Tim

 

[Lindberg]

Your question has been answered, but I just want to throw in kudos to you for speaking up and voicing a concern. It speaks well of your ADM and your training. A lot of students would have just kept on going, or slightly better, left.

Ron is exactly right that folks won't always be doing what you expect, and the onus will be on you to figure out how to deal with it. Many pilots, not just students, forget that the best method is often simply to communicate.

 

[Clark1961]

Here it is:

We have a lot of CH-47s where I fly, I saw this video and now am extra vigilant when they hover taxi around the airport.

That accident happened at FNL. I've done many touch n goes there. Agree that the video is a very good reminder to be aware of rotorwash and stay clear. I don't even like to taxi near them when they have the disk loaded. They are responsible for their downwash but we should operate with our safety in mind.

 

[Clark1961]

Thanks for the replies. I was aware that helicopters flew the opposite pattern, and thought I was correct in that I needed to be flying the standard pattern, but the inbound plane jumping in the opposite pattern threw me for a loop.

Prolly should hold off on the acrobatics for a bit. At least until you've finished your cross country work.

 

[Velocity173]

Only thing I'll add is be aware of rotor wash even with an opposite pattern. Stay high on Final, give at least 2 minutes in trail and be aware of a crosswind blowing their wash from a parallel taxiway / grass towards the runway.

I've gotten chewed out over the radio for blowing rotor wash into a C172 while hovering 50 yards from the runway. Was on the ground when he reported final as well. The crosswind just took all our dirty air and blew it towards the runway. Another thing, just because a large aircraft like an H-53 is on the deck at "flat pitch" doesn't mean they aren't producing rotor wash. The blades have a negative twist and the tips are still spinning a vortice, so if the throttles are at "fly," she's still producing significant rotor wash.

Also, the PIC can sit in either seat in the military. I actually flew 90 % in the left as a PC / IP.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

Only thing I'll add is be aware of rotor wash even with an opposite pattern. Stay high on Final, give at least 2 minutes in trail and be aware of a crosswind blowing their wash from a parallel taxiway / grass towards the runway.

I've gotten chewed out over the radio for blowing rotor wash into a C172 while hovering 50 yards from the runway. Was on the ground when he reported final as well. The crosswind just took all our dirty air and blew it towards the runway. Another thing, just because a large aircraft like an H-53 is on the deck at "flat pitch" doesn't mean they aren't producing rotor wash. The blades have a negative twist and the tips are still spinning a vortice, so if the throttles are at "fly," she's still producing significant rotor wash.

Also, the PIC can sit in either seat in the military. I actually flew 90 % in the left as a PC / IP.

Can I ask what the general idea of, rationale behind what they're doing? Touch and go's at an airport 55 miles away I get...but what is the reason they'd be doing it at one municipal airport over another? Does Fentress or some other military field not fulfill the same purpose? I know nothing of mil operations aside from I'm under a lot of them living where I live.

 

[Velocity173]

Can I ask what the general idea of, rationale behind what they're doing? Touch and go's at an airport 55 miles away I get...but what is the reason they'd be doing it at one municipal airport over another? Does Fentress or some other military field not fulfill the same purpose? I know nothing of mil operations aside from I'm under a lot of them living where I live.

Well multiple reasons. First, a lot of times the primary military field could be traffic saturated already. You lose valuable gas / training time sitting on the deck, waiting for tower to clear you. Sometimes the military field has crazy no multiple pattern fly times for noise abatement. Usually that's late at night though. Sometimes you have military students that have never operated out of a civilian non towered or towered field and you need to check that block on their training. Sometimes that field is associated with a cross country and makes the most sense for getting a gas and go over a military field.

Personally, for student training, I used to only hit the non towered fields that weren't busy with civ traffic. Once multiple civ FW showed up, I would go somewhere else.

 

[Zeldman]

After 19 years of flying for a living, I have learned one thing when it comes to sharing airspace with military helicopters.

They appear to fly with head up arse.. Leave the area immediately, do not trust them to talk on the radio or know their position relative to the airport. Expect them to make surprise movements without talking on the radio. Expect them to cross the threshold of the runway in front of you when you are very short final. Expect them to fly opposite direction in the traffic pattern and straight towards you without talking. Expect them to fly at pattern level and over the airport, not landing there and not talking. Whatever you can come up with that another aircraft shouldn't do, expect it.

Every near mid-air I have come close to was with a military helicopter and for the reasons I have listed above. I got caught in the rotor wash of the A-hole that crossed the runway in front of me, and for a number of lifetimes I did not know where my airplane was going to hit the ground. I still have the chicken that the A/C was wearing that I ripped off during our little "discussion".

I am probably stepped on some toes here, and if you haven't done one of the situations I have listed above, good for you. I hope you taught others to not fly like the ones I listed.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

After 19 years of flying for a living, I have learned one thing when it comes to sharing airspace with military helicopters.

They appear to fly with head up arse.. Leave the area immediately, do not trust them to talk on the radio or know their position relative to the airport. Expect them to make surprise movements without talking on the radio. Expect them to cross the threshold of the runway in front of you when you are very short final. Expect them to fly opposite direction in the traffic pattern and straight towards you without talking. Expect them to fly at pattern level and over the airport, not landing there and not talking. Whatever you can come up with that another aircraft shouldn't do, expect it.

Every near mid-air I have come close to was with a military helicopter and for the reasons I have listed above. I got caught in the rotor wash of the A-hole that crossed the runway in front of me, and for a number of lifetimes I did not know where my airplane was going to hit the ground. I still have the chicken that the A/C was wearing that I ripped off during our little "discussion".

I am probably stepped on some toes here, and if you haven't done one of the situations I have listed above, good for you. I hope you taught others to not fly like the ones I listed.

Well I have 19 hours of flying experience, but my two interactions with military helicopters (both CH/MH53's, separate occasions) involved plenty of communication from the helicopters. That's how I knew he was flying a right pattern...because he was calling "right downwind", etc. When they spent an extra few minutes on the runway he called to tell me they were troubleshooting a door and would soon be on their way, and apologized.

I reckon I've been lucky, or maybe you've been unlucky.

I will say, I wouldn't hate if they stopped flying over/near my house at low altitude at dusk. I go to bed at dusk, and they're beating the hell out of that air. Gets noisy.

 

[luvflyin]

That accident happened at FNL. I've done many touch n goes there. Agree that the video is a very good reminder to be aware of rotorwash and stay clear. I don't even like to taxi near them when they have the disk loaded. They are responsible for their downwash but we should operate with our safety in mind.

That wasn't "rotor wash," it was wake turbulence. I know, mincing words, but there is a difference. A helicopter makes "tip vortices" just like a wing. The point is, you can be well beyond the effects of down wash and get rolled over from a vortice. The AIM recommends staying 3 rotor diameters away for rotor wash avoidence. That Cirrus was way beyond that. It was wake turbulence what got him, not rotor wash.

 

[danhagan]

After 19 years of flying for a living, I have learned one thing when it comes to sharing airspace with military helicopters.

They appear to fly with head up arse.. Leave the area immediately, do not trust them to talk on the radio or know their position relative to the airport. Expect them to make surprise movements without talking on the radio. Expect them to cross the threshold of the runway in front of you when you are very short final. Expect them to fly opposite direction in the traffic pattern and straight towards you without talking. Expect them to fly at pattern level and over the airport, not landing there and not talking. Whatever you can come up with that another aircraft shouldn't do, expect it.

I guess the military chopper guys in my area are the exception. They do a great job always. They can't fly a right traffic pattern due to the sky dive box to the south at my field. The fixed wing military guys that practice at Las Cruces fly right traffic patterns also, and are often not at the correct hemispheric altitude when out of the airport patterns for my field (5T6, El Paso and Las Cruces). I guess we're lucky ... or we get the advanced guys

 

[Sundancer]

A close family member flies 53s (****ters); it's a huge, powerful aircraft, surprisingly fast and nimble; mixing it up with GA traffic isn't his favorite thing, either; some of us in GA also tend to go radio silent, be unpredictable, land downwind, and remain oblivious to other traffic. I imagine the ratio of knot heads to stellar aviators is roughly the same between the two groups: it's just obviously easy to identify a military aircraft and lump 'em all in. So, expect them to behave more-or-less like any other pilots.

The dusk/night flying is necessary - check out the VR routes on a sectional, see where your house fits in. It could be worse; C130's fly low-levels (300 AGL) down there, and they be kinda loud, too!

So, yeah, I had an Army Huey try to kill me near KFME some years ago - cutting across final at an adjacent airport. I also had a pin-head in Navion driver pull onto the active, with me on 50 yard final, same airport. It ain't the color of the clothes or the type of aircraft . . .

Anyway, U done good - you talked to the other pilot, worked it out, win for everyone.

 

[flyingron]

Yup. But I know of no regulation about it.

Tim

Nothing I said was incorrect either about airplanes or rotorcraft. The airplanes need to make turns to the left (unless indicated otherwise). Rotorcraft need to avoid the fixed wing flow. That IS the regulation (91.126).

The issue here isn't so much the rotorcraft which seems to have been playing by all the rules and best practices, but the yoyo who decided to fly his airplane in the right-hand pattern that the rotorcraft was using.

 

[tspear]

Nothing I said was incorrect either about airplanes or rotorcraft. The airplanes need to make turns to the left (unless indicated otherwise). Rotorcraft need to avoid the fixed wing flow. That IS the regulation (91.126).

The issue here isn't so much the rotorcraft which seems to have been playing by all the rules and best practices, but the yoyo who decided to fly his airplane in the right-hand pattern that the rotorcraft was using.

Agree. But my point is, the regulation 91.126; effectively implies do not follow a left hand pattern. It says nothing about using a right hand pattern; for it says, a heli could fly 500ft above pattern altitude, and descend straight down.....
The convention seems to be an opposite pattern; but there is nothing in the AIM or in regulations which stipulate this.

Tim

 

[Clark1961]

Agree. But my point is, the regulation 91.126; effectively implies do not follow a left hand pattern. It says nothing about using a right hand pattern; for it says, a heli could fly 500ft above pattern altitude, and descend straight down.....
The convention seems to be an opposite pattern; but there is nothing in the AIM or in regulations which stipulate this.

A pattern is convenient for practicing take-offs n landings. Otherwise helicopters seem to do their own thing. I can't recall seeing a helicopter flying any sort of pattern other than for training. They are pretty much straight in, straight out folks. Well, when they fly that is.

 

[tspear]

A pattern is convenient for practicing take-offs n landings. Otherwise helicopters seem to do their own thing. I can't recall seeing a helicopter flying any sort of pattern other than for training. They are pretty much straight in, straight out folks. Well, when they fly that is.

Might be airport specific. I used to see a lot of choppers in KFDK (Frederick MD), KGAI (Gaithersburg MD), KJYO (Leesburg VA), and KPSM (Portsmouth NH). At these airports, the helicopters all used opposite traffic patterns. Anyway, I need to save money and got for a rotocraft rating one day.

Tim

 

[Velocity173]

A pattern is convenient for practicing take-offs n landings. Otherwise helicopters seem to do their own thing. I can't recall seeing a helicopter flying any sort of pattern other than for training. They are pretty much straight in, straight out folks. Well, when they fly that is.

It's also convenient for staying out of the avoid ranges on the height velocity diagram and allows for a suitable area for engine out. If I'm going into an airport and time isn't critical, I'll do a normal pattern. Generally that's right traffic but if no other FW have reported and I'm on the left side, I'll do left. If in a hurry (EMS) and the winds cooperate, then straight to the ramp. Each situation is different.