Non-Electric Pre-heat

I usually let it run for about 30 minutes prior to starting. That's enough time to walk to the FBO, get a coffee, check the weather, and then head back outside to finish pre-flight.

Also, I would cover the cowling with a sleeping bag (bungeed so it didn't blow away) to help retain heat in the engine compartment.

The system put out a good amount of heat, so I suspect you could run it for less time and still get the engine above 30 degrees pretty easily.



dmccormack said:
How long do you pre-heat with the blower-type?

I'd prefer a plug-in type deal so that I know the engine block is above 40 F. The blower type seem to take a long time to get the block up to a reasonably warm temp...
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dmccormack said:
Actually -- that is a good idea. Duh.

But -- "big" is not in the Aeronca lexicon.

:D
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I was thinking along the same lines but thought there might be a snag. Assuming your electric pre-heat requires at least 4 hours to add sufficient warmth to the engine (typical) you'd have to make a trip to the airport no less than 4 hours and no more than the generator runtime prior to your departure. You could probably rig an external fuel tank for the generator (or set it up to run on propane with a large enough tank) so that it could run all night but that seems troublesome to me for some reason. And unless the hangar was well ventilated you might have to run the generator's exhaust outside. I suppose you could build a small outdoor enclosure for the generator to run in.
 
gismo said:
I was thinking along the same lines but thought there might be a snag. Assuming your electric pre-heat requires at least 4 hours to add sufficient warmth to the engine (typical) you'd have to make a trip to the airport no less than 4 hours and no more than the generator runtime prior to your departure. You could probably rig an external fuel tank for the generator (or set it up to run on propane with a large enough tank) so that it could run all night but that seems troublesome to me for some reason. And unless the hangar was well ventilated you might have to run the generator's exhaust outside. I suppose you could build a small outdoor enclosure for the generator to run in.
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Yeah -- that does seem to reduce the utility.

Plus hauling a generator around is not an option.

So far, this is still the best option: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5bK_ivwXs4
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The ceramic space heater idea scares me a bit, too, which is why we only plugged it in before flying. I'd normally plug it in first thing in the winter when I got to the airport and turn it on high. By the time I was done doing my pre-flight, go back inside to wash up, and ready to fire, it usually had enough time to at least warm up the cabin a bit from "Stupidly bitterly cold."

Good idea on the prop, I hadn't thought of that.
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I know several pilots that use the ceramic space heater for engine heaters, but the run about 6 feet of dryer hose or similar hose so the heater is located away from the aircraft.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I know several pilots that use the ceramic space heater for engine heaters, but the run about 6 feet of dryer hose or similar hose so the heater is located away from the aircraft.
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Well, in our case we were using it for cabin pre-heat, not engine. The engine had a Reiff heater.

This made me think of something a friend of mine does with his Cherokee, which is parked outside (no electricity).

He'll drive his Jeep out, and then put a duct from the exhaust to the engine ducts, and has something setup where it pretty much works like one of those dragon heaters. Then he just leaves the Jeep running at a high idle (~2000 RPM) while he does his pre-flight, etc. By the time he's done, the engine's warmed up pretty well. Seems to have worked for him so far.

This technique works best if you have a Jeep or some other inefficient vehicle that expells lots of heat through the exhaust. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
He'll drive his Jeep out, and then put a duct from the exhaust to the engine ducts, and has something setup where it pretty much works like one of those dragon heaters. Then he just leaves the Jeep running at a high idle (~2000 RPM) while he does his pre-flight, etc. By the time he's done, the engine's warmed up pretty well. Seems to have worked for him so far.

This technique works best if you have a Jeep or some other inefficient vehicle that expells lots of heat through the exhaust. :)
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Lots of water in car exhaust -- I can't imagine dumping all that warm moisture on a cold engine block can be good?
 
dmccormack said:
Lots of water in car exhaust -- I can't imagine dumping all that warm moisture on a cold engine block can be good?
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Not really that much different from other combustion heaters - the biggest difference is there is much less excess air mixed in with the burned products. A little more CO and NOx are also possible.

Propane is C3H8 gasoline is approximately C8H17.
 
dmccormack said:
Lots of water in car exhaust -- I can't imagine dumping all that warm moisture on a cold engine block can be good?
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Lots of water in any hydrocarbon exhaust. All that hydrogen, and O2 have to make something out of themselves.
 
dmccormack said:
Lots of water in car exhaust -- I can't imagine dumping all that warm moisture on a cold engine block can be good?
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I'm not sure I see a problem with that. The size of the water droplets is insignificant, and these engines seem to put up with flying through downpours just fine. I'd see the corrosive properties of the exhaust to be a significantly larger concern.

It's not a solution that I use or necessarily would use, but it's what they do and they haven't had any issues from it. However, these people don't fly their plane very much, either, and won't go out at all if it's "too cold" (not sure what that threshold is).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm not sure I see a problem with that. The size of the water droplets is insignificant, and these engines seem to put up with flying through downpours just fine. I'd see the corrosive properties of the exhaust to be a significantly larger concern.

It's not a solution that I use or necessarily would use, but it's what they do and they haven't had any issues from it. However, these people don't fly their plane very much, either, and won't go out at all if it's "too cold" (not sure what that threshold is).
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I suppose the water introduced from the exhaust would quickly vaporize if the engine got up to operating temperature (not a sure thing if the flight is short or the temps are very cold).
 
letsee i've heard of guys setting up some sort of Cell phone activated relay to turn on their electric engine heaters in the hangars. perhaps you could get creative and find a controls guy who could rig up something that would activate an electric starter on the generator. just send a text message to your hangar a few hours before you want to fly and presto.
 
dmccormack said:
I suppose the water introduced from the exhaust would quickly vaporize if the engine got up to operating temperature (not a sure thing if the flight is short or the temps are very cold).
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I guess I'm still not seeing the issue, and as others have pointed out, there's lots of H2O in any hydrocarbon's exhaust.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I guess I'm still not seeing the issue, and as others have pointed out, there's lots of H2O in any hydrocarbon's exhaust.
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Very true. Though I've noticed the exhaust temps on my car and truck (F-150, V-8) are fairly low. I suppose the cat convertor absorbs quite a bit of the heat..?
 
dmccormack said:
Very true. Though I've noticed the exhaust temps on my car and truck (F-150, V-8) are fairly low. I suppose the cat convertor absorbs quite a bit of the heat..?
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That's probably part of it. Also your whole exhaust system is a heat exchanger. The larger bore exhausts that vehicles are getting these days (the 472 cubic inch V8 in my '69 Cadillac had a single 2" exhaust, the 415 cubic inch V10 in my '00 Excursion has a 3"+ exhaust) also make for lower exhaust velocities and more time for the heat exchange to occur, resulting in lower temps once it gets out the back. That's part of where the high idle comes in - you'll be producing more heat, and it'll be traveling faster, resulting in more heat getting to the engine. Then the air will slow down over the engine, more heat transfer occurs, etc.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's probably part of it. Also your whole exhaust system is a heat exchanger. The larger bore exhausts that vehicles are getting these days (the 472 cubic inch V8 in my '69 Cadillac had a single 2" exhaust, the 415 cubic inch V10 in my '00 Excursion has a 3"+ exhaust) also make for lower exhaust velocities and more time for the heat exchange to occur, resulting in lower temps once it gets out the back. That's part of where the high idle comes in - you'll be producing more heat, and it'll be traveling faster, resulting in more heat getting to the engine. Then the air will slow down over the engine, more heat transfer occurs, etc.
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Even my literbike isn't all that hot unless I'm really rolling and then have to stop at a light -- lots of heat-sink exposed to the air and a huge exhaust can helps cools things off.

I'm gonna stick with the ammo can heater since I can't stuff the Accord into the Chief. :D
 
tonycondon said:
letsee i've heard of guys setting up some sort of Cell phone activated relay to turn on their electric engine heaters in the hangars. perhaps you could get creative and find a controls guy who could rig up something that would activate an electric starter on the generator. just send a text message to your hangar a few hours before you want to fly and presto.
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Or charge their Sailplane Batteries. The antares has a built in GSM modem

Integrated GSM Modem
The Antares 20E comes standard equipped with a GSM modem connected to its main computer. This makes it possible, by using SMS or computer, to read aircraft status, download logs and control battery-charging without being in the vicinity of the aircraft. This also makes it possible for Lange Aviation technicians to provide system monitoring, software maintenance and error finding diagnostics without having to dispatch service personnel first.
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http://www.lange-aviation.com/htm/english/products/antares_20e/comfort_and_quality.html
 
pete that is sweet.

can the ground crew text the glider and get a response with lat/long?

like you would ever need a chase crew in the Antares anyway...maybe I should have jesse rig up a system like that for the Cherokee.
 
Bob Noel said:
I used a red dragon heater - and used a motorcycle battery for the fan since
it was a lot lighter than a car battery (much easier to bring home a recharge
when needed)

I would get the preheater going and then proceed with all my preflight and
weather briefing.
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Those little portable jumpstart units (like this one picked off the internet at random) work great as a power source for my Red Dragon, and easy to charge between uses.

Of course you can also run the Red Dragon off your car or truck parked near your cowl.
 
gismo said:
I was thinking along the same lines but thought there might be a snag. Assuming your electric pre-heat requires at least 4 hours to add sufficient warmth to the engine (typical) you'd have to make a trip to the airport no less than 4 hours and no more than the generator runtime prior to your departure. You could probably rig an external fuel tank for the generator (or set it up to run on propane with a large enough tank) so that it could run all night but that seems troublesome to me for some reason. And unless the hangar was well ventilated you might have to run the generator's exhaust outside. I suppose you could build a small outdoor enclosure for the generator to run in.
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Depending on your climate, you may not need to preheat for 4 hours.

I live in the Atlanta area and we have a eight or ten sub-freezing Saturday mornings a year. I use a portable generator (that stays at the airport) to run a Reiff hotstrip on the sump and to run two 1500W blowdriers I insert into the cowl inlets through foam plugs I made. 30 minutes of this type heating makes a significant difference.

If my hangar had electricity, I'd use one of the little programmable timers to turn the reiff hotstrip a couple of hours before I arrive at the airport. With a packing blanket over the cowl and foam plugs in the inlets, a couple of hours of 400 watts of contact heat on the sump is a big difference maker.
 
vontresc said:
Lots of water in any hydrocarbon exhaust. All that hydrogen, and O2 have to make something out of themselves.
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The difference is the propane heaters heat a lot of air that's not consumed in combustion. That makes the ratio of water to air a lot lower with the heater vs a car's exhaust. Also propane burns a lot cleaner than gasoline so I'd expect less corrosives in the heater's output than the car exhaust.
 
dmccormack said:
Yes! (whew)
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When I was getting some experience in a Champ on ski's the instructor asked:

"Cold?"
"yes!"
"pull that knob"
"got it"
"Now pretend your warm, har har harha harh har"

I think he put ski's on it just to use that line.

Todd
 
gismo said:
Seems like one of the liquid sidewalk deicers would work a lot better than windshield washer fluid (which is mostly water with a little detergent and alcohol).
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Yeah, but it's cheap, you use it for other things like windshields, and it seemed to work. I'm not sure what they put in the sidewalk stuff.
I just had it with me one day at the hanger.
 
el con said:
Yeah, but it's cheap, you use it for other things like windshields, and it seemed to work. I'm not sure what they put in the sidewalk stuff.
I just had it with me one day at the hanger.
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Ah. Necessity, the mother of...
 
Dad used a length of 3 inch stove pipe with El's on each end. One end went in the cowl outlet and the other over a blowtorch. I mean a real blowtorch, the old brass kind. About half an hour with that and the old Continental thought it was Summer.

I have electricity in my hanger, so I use a 250 watt heat lamp on a small stand. The lamp aims up into the cowl outlet at the engine. I just turn in on the night before. Works great. I do use a blanket over the top of the cowl. With this there is no flame, although I'm still careful to keep it away from any location that oil or fuel could drip on it.
 

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wby0nder said:
Sweet, I'm buiding one
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I just did -- I'm using a Coleman PowerShot backpacking stove -- puts out PLENTY of heat! And everything stores in the ammo can when done.

Took a while to drill and cut through all that good steel, but the result is lightweight and effective!

:thumbsup:

I'll take some pics soon.
 
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