Non-Electric Pre-heat

I have a Red Dragon Preheater that uses a propane tank for fuel (just like a grill) and uses +12V from a car battery to drive the blower fan. The output of the heater goes into the cowl openings via a flexible duct.

Works pretty well. There is an adapter to use Coleman stove type tanks when traveling... but I've never taken the Red Dragon on the road... it is a bit too cumbersome.



dmccormack said:
I'll be in a T-hangar for a while with NO electric service (grrrrr).

I can't find any non-electric engine preheater setups.

Suggestions?
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nyoung said:
I have a Red Dragon Preheater that uses a propane tank for fuel (just like a grill) and uses +12V from a car battery to drive the blower fan. The output of the heater goes into the cowl openings via a flexible duct.

Works pretty well. There is an adapter to use Coleman stove type tanks when traveling... but I've never taken the Red Dragon on the road... it is a bit too cumbersome.
Click to expand...

How long do you pre-heat with the blower-type?

I'd prefer a plug-in type deal so that I know the engine block is above 40 F. The blower type seem to take a long time to get the block up to a reasonably warm temp...
 
dmccormack said:
How long do you pre-heat with the blower-type?

I'd prefer a plug-in type deal so that I know the engine block is above 40 F. The blower type seem to take a long time to get the block up to a reasonably warm temp...
Click to expand...

Actually the hot air preheaters can warm an engine faster than most electric sump/cylinder methods. IIRC I get about 10-15 F rise per hour with a Reiff system and the propane heater I have will do about 50 F rise in 30 minutes. I've found that hot air preheat usually works better if you feed it into the engine compartment from below e.g alongside the exhaust pipes. You do have to be careful not to use too high an air temp from the heater as some of them will melt plastics and/or cause some paint damage if you're not careful. IMO it's also important to heat for at least 30 minutes unless the OAT is within 15 F of your cold start threshold. A rise of more than 15 F requires extra time to "soak" into the engine's insides.
 
gismo said:
Actually the hot air preheaters can warm an engine faster than most electric sump/cylinder methods. IIRC I get about 10-15 F rise per hour with a Reiff system and the propane heater I have will do about 50 F rise in 30 minutes. I've found that hot air preheat usually works better if you feed it into the engine compartment from below e.g alongside the exhaust pipes. You do have to be careful not to use too high an air temp from the heater as some of them will melt plastics and/or cause some paint damage if you're not careful. IMO it's also important to heat for at least 30 minutes unless the OAT is within 15 F of your cold start threshold. A rise of more than 15 F requires extra time to "soak" into the engine's insides.
Click to expand...


Interesting -- I suppose the hot air method I've seen to date (through the intake openings) is wasteful and somewhat ineffective.
:dunno:
 
swingwing said:
Here is a link to check out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5bK_ivwXs4

I use a similar set up when out at remote locations. Works good, but I'm not recomending it.......so don't call when the plane goes up in flames and the hanger burns to the ground:D
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Excellent! I have a couple of backpacking stoves, including a Coleman that uses PowerShot fuel that puts out a TON of heat. Ammo cans are cheap and easy to get.

Where did you need "pig putty"?

Where are you in PA?
 
dmccormack said:
Excellent! I have a couple of backpacking stoves, including a Coleman that uses PowerShot fuel that puts out a TON of heat. Ammo cans are cheap and easy to get.

Where did you need "pig putty"?

Where are you in PA?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming he used the pig putty around the connection between the hose and the can. The setup I currently use is a piece of pipe with holes that fits over the stove. I am planning to build the one in the youtube video for use next winter.

I live in Kutztown (west of Allentown) based at RDG
 
I used a red dragon heater - and used a motorcycle battery for the fan since
it was a lot lighter than a car battery (much easier to bring home a recharge
when needed)

I would get the preheater going and then proceed with all my preflight and
weather briefing.
 
swingwing said:
Here is a link to check out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5bK_ivwXs4

I use a similar set up when out at remote locations. Works good, but I'm not recomending it.......so don't call when the plane goes up in flames and the hanger burns to the ground:D
Click to expand...

As soon as that video opened, I thought it was going to be a Red Green skit. :D


Trapper John
 
Another bonus for forced-air pre-heat is that, if you have the air flow directly correctly, you could possibly open the cabin heater vent and let the cabin and instruments get some warm air as well. :dunno:
 
CJones said:
Another bonus for forced-air pre-heat is that, if you have the air flow directly correctly, you could possibly open the cabin heater vent and let the cabin and instruments get some warm air as well. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Negative. The exhaust is not breathable...CO is not heathy
 
In the Russian campaign, the Germans lit gasoline on fire underneath the oil pan in the ME109. If it was good enough for them........
 
Anthony said:
In the Russian campaign, the Germans lit gasoline on fire underneath the oil pan in the ME109. If it was good enough for them........
Click to expand...

It gets cold in Western PA, but not exactly Russian Front cold...:frown2:

Besides, I won't be scrambling for an anti-tank mission in the Chief!:nono:
 
smigaldi said:
A little thread drift... how about this for getting the snow and ice off of the apron leading from the hangar to the taxiway?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Poultry_Sanitizer.html
Click to expand...

I have poured windshield washer solution on the ice in front of the hanger door. It loosens it up enough to take off with the scraper I keep next to the snow shovel. This year I'm going to try some heat tape along the door edge.
I have an electric blower/heater that works well putting the supplied flex tube under by the cowl opening. I just put on a pan heater (EZ Heat) for plugging in if away from the home base.
When I win the lottery I'll just get a furnace for the hanger.
 
el con said:
I have poured windshield washer solution on the ice in front of the hanger door. It loosens it up enough to take off with the scraper I keep next to the snow shovel. This year I'm going to try some heat tape along the door edge.
I have an electric blower/heater that works well putting the supplied flex tube under by the cowl opening. I just put on a pan heater (EZ Heat) for plugging in if away from the home base.
When I win the lottery I'll just get a furnace for the hanger.
Click to expand...
That is a good idea.

My airport shovel up pretty close to the hangar door. But the overhang will dribble water from the roof and that will then freeze into a pretty tough ice damn. I have tried chipping and other things. I had been thinking of getting a heat source but I'll try your chemical idea.

My hangar is unheated, I could move into a heated one but the rent would go up by something like $200/mo more and I would also have to pay electric and gas.
 
smigaldi said:
That is a good idea.

My airport shovel up pretty close to the hangar door. But the overhang will dribble water from the roof and that will then freeze into a pretty tough ice damn. I have tried chipping and other things. I had been thinking of getting a heat source but I'll try your chemical idea.

My hangar is unheated, I could move into a heated one but the rent would go up by something like $200/mo more and I would also have to pay electric and gas.
Click to expand...

Yeah, no salt in it and if you shop around you can buy it pretty cheap, put it on let it work a little and it softens that build up that drips off the eave.
 
Bob Noel said:
Negative. The exhaust is not breathable...CO is not heathy
Click to expand...

The heated air from these combustion heaters is also pretty corrosive with lots of moisture content. I woudn't want to blow that onto my instrument panel.
 
smigaldi said:
My airport shovel up pretty close to the hangar door. But the overhang will dribble water from the roof and that will then freeze into a pretty tough ice damn. I have tried chipping and other things. I had been thinking of getting a heat source but I'll try your chemical idea.
Click to expand...

A weed burner works pretty well for this.


Trapper John
 
In the Mooney, we had a little space heater that we'd put in the cabin and let that warm things up inside for a bit on cold days. I probably ought to get one for the Aztec, too. Of course, this also requires electricity...

If you have the engine heaters, what I try to do is get them plugged in the night before a flight (or the morning before if it's a flight later in the day) to give a lot of soak time. A trick I learned from the Tomy (done on the 421s at Ames) is to put a sleeping bag over the engine. Started doing that on the Mooney with good results. Now I need to buy a second sleeping bag for the Aztec. :)

Requires hangars with electricity, yes, but just a thought.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If you have the engine heaters, what I try to do is get them plugged in the night before a flight (or the morning before if it's a flight later in the day) to give a lot of soak time. A trick I learned from the Tomy (done on the 421s at Ames) is to put a sleeping bag over the engine. Started doing that on the Mooney with good results. Now I need to buy a second sleeping bag for the Aztec. :)
Click to expand...
In the winter I plug in my plane all the time. Then I wrap the cowl with a quilted movers pad. I also make sure the prop is wrapped as they are real good heat sinks.

One of the guys leaves his ceramic space heater plugged in on low or medium all the time too. That scares me a little. So I just put it in for about 30-60 minutes prior to start up. I keep toying with the idea of getting a little oil filled space heater and putting that into the cockpit during the cold months and leaving it on when the plane is alone.
 
el con said:
I have poured windshield washer solution on the ice in front of the hanger door. It loosens it up enough to take off with the scraper I keep next to the snow shovel. This year I'm going to try some heat tape along the door edge.
Click to expand...

Seems like one of the liquid sidewalk deicers would work a lot better than windshield washer fluid (which is mostly water with a little detergent and alcohol).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In the Mooney, we had a little space heater that we'd put in the cabin and let that warm things up inside for a bit on cold days. I probably ought to get one for the Aztec, too. Of course, this also requires electricity...

If you have the engine heaters, what I try to do is get them plugged in the night before a flight (or the morning before if it's a flight later in the day) to give a lot of soak time. A trick I learned from the Tomy (done on the 421s at Ames) is to put a sleeping bag over the engine. Started doing that on the Mooney with good results. Now I need to buy a second sleeping bag for the Aztec. :)

Requires hangars with electricity, yes, but just a thought.
Click to expand...

I use mover's blankets to insulate my engines in the winter. The engines have sump and cylinder heaters. The hangar has a forced air unit heater and I can turn that and/or the engine heaters on from home. Typically I put the engine heat on several hours before a planned departure and fire up the hangar heat about an hour before I plan to arrive at the airport. I leave the cabin door of the plane open so the hangar heat gets inside.
 
smigaldi said:
In the winter I plug in my plane all the time. Then I wrap the cowl with a quilted movers pad. I also make sure the prop is wrapped as they are real good heat sinks.

One of the guys leaves his ceramic space heater plugged in on low or medium all the time too. That scares me a little. So I just put it in for about 30-60 minutes prior to start up. I keep toying with the idea of getting a little oil filled space heater and putting that into the cockpit during the cold months and leaving it on when the plane is alone.
Click to expand...

The ceramic space heater idea scares me a bit, too, which is why we only plugged it in before flying. I'd normally plug it in first thing in the winter when I got to the airport and turn it on high. By the time I was done doing my pre-flight, go back inside to wash up, and ready to fire, it usually had enough time to at least warm up the cabin a bit from "Stupidly bitterly cold."

Good idea on the prop, I hadn't thought of that.
 
gismo said:
I use mover's blankets to insulate my engines in the winter. The engines have sump and cylinder heaters. The hangar has a forced air unit heater and I can turn that and/or the engine heaters on from home. Typically I put the engine heat on several hours before a planned departure and fire up the hangar heat about an hour before I plan to arrive at the airport. I leave the cabin door of the plane open so the hangar heat gets inside.
Click to expand...

You have a nicer hangar than I do. :)

My plane's kept in a communal hangar. The advantage of that is that I can call the line guys and ask them to plug it in the night before, which is what I did last winter. My engines have cylinder base and sump heaters as well. Unfortunately because of the communal hangar, I'm not fully sure how to address heating the plane. What I'll probably do this winter is cover the engines with the sleeping bags and plug them in the night before flying, and then not have them pull the plane out until I get there to maximize the heat in the engines. Maybe see if I can work something with a space heater for the cabin for half an hour beforehand.
 
The C-205 owner I fly with has a nice setup -- a very nice AeroTherm that keeps the engine compartment at whatever pre-set you like, and a small ceramic eletric heater in the cabin.


An electric outlet nearby would make this whole preheat problem soooooo much easier! :frown3:

But the Ammo can + backpack stove idea has merit -- small, lightweight, portable, easy!:smile:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You have a nicer hangar than I do. :)

My plane's kept in a communal hangar. The advantage of that is that I can call the line guys and ask them to plug it in the night before, which is what I did last winter. My engines have cylinder base and sump heaters as well. Unfortunately because of the communal hangar, I'm not fully sure how to address heating the plane. What I'll probably do this winter is cover the engines with the sleeping bags and plug them in the night before flying, and then not have them pull the plane out until I get there to maximize the heat in the engines. Maybe see if I can work something with a space heater for the cabin for half an hour beforehand.
Click to expand...
Like I said mine just stay plugged in all the time. I do use a thermo-cube that will turn them off if the OAT gets above 45F. it will turn on the heaters if the temp droops below 35F. Very handy and pretty cheap.
 
gismo said:
Seems like one of the liquid sidewalk deicers would work a lot better than windshield washer fluid (which is mostly water with a little detergent and alcohol).
Click to expand...

If you're ever in a pinch and don't have the regular 'de-icer salt', you can get by with granular fertilizer - especially stuff with a high 'K' value.
 
just buy a gas powered generator. then you can run a TV microwave and fridge for the summer months. go big or go home :)
 
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