Non Av - Home Heating Hardware

[Arnold]

Hello folks, I am faced with the need to replace my very old oil burning boiler - the sooner the better. I am planning to buy one of the very high efficiency models that can be vented directly outside so I can move the equipment to a corner a long way from the chimney.

While I currently use home heating oil, the house does have natural gas service which we use for cooking.

Here's my question - which fuel should I use. I've received conflicting information about which fuel's price is more or less likely to rise the most over the next 20 or so years. I expect to live here that long.

The U.S. in general may have an abudant supply of natural gas, but it is not harvested in abundance, best I can tell due to cost. So it is quite likely that the prices will continue to rise as people substitute gas for oil.

The U.S. will never have suficient oil but while it may be a limited supply subject to market fluctuations, national security concerns, and international monopolistic behaivor one can substitute bio-diesel for oil if and when the economics work out.

I am accepting all sorts of recommendations from make and model of equipment to fuel to vendor. My bottom line is this - I don't want to have $1000.00 per month heating bills come winter as I did last year.

Thanks everyone. Oh yes, I'm putting a poll out there because what the heck it's that silly season.

 

[Everskyward]

The U.S. in general may have an abudant supply of natural gas, but it is not harvested in abundance, best I can tell due to cost. So it is quite likely that the prices will continue to rise as people substitute gas for oil.

There is quite a bit of natural gas drilling out here in the western states, but, just like oil, the amount a company will "harvest" is influenced by the price and the demand.

My bottom line is this - I don't want to have $1000.00 per month heating bills come winter as I did last year.

I don't know how big a home you have or how warm you keep it but I have never had a natural gas bill over $200/month in the winter and I live in Colorado.

 

[mikea]

The US and North America will always have a much more plentiful supply of natural gas than oil.

My house has one of those 98% efficent furnaces. My "budget" gas bill, in the land of the biggest consumer ripoff in the US, is $125 a month. I got bills for over $300 in my drafty old apartment in Chicago.

Yeah, it's budget vs. not and the house in partly underground so it's well insulated, but I'm convinced that the extra money for the efficiency is very much worth it, and will be moreso as the energy prices rise.

Besides, don't you want to never again have to deal with the smell, storage, and deliveries of oil? You'll still get gas even if there is 12 feet of snow on the roads.

 

[Skip Miller]

Can you find an efficient dual-fuel furnace? -Skip

 

[kevin47881]

In these parts heat pumps are the norm. I don't believe the climate in SE PA will allow for such however.

That said, if I had gas available (whether natural or propane) that would be my preferred option.

Have you considered a corn furnace?

 

[ScottM]

Have you considered a corn furnace?

A Tennessee corn furnace!

 

[kevin47881]

A Tennessee corn furnace!

That will keep you warm. Even if not, you just won't care. :smile:

 

[ScottM]

That will keep you warm. Even if not, you just won't care. :smile:

I agree!

Looks a lot like my HS home science project thanks to the FoxFire books. I was very popular with my friends at parties!!

 

[mikea]

Another ting: You need to look at how big your gas service is. A Hi-E furnace might require a 1 1/2"(?) or larger gas supply pipe to give it the required BTUs. You should check that.

If your house is set up only for gas stove service you could be looking at a new gas meter and running new pipe out to the street as well as running a new supply into the house. The tankless water heaters require big pipes, too.

 

[Arnold]

That will keep you warm for a period. Kids would freeze though.

 

[Arnold]

Another ting: You need to look at how big your gas service is. A Hi-E furnace might require a 1 1/2"(?) or larger gas supply pipe to give it the required BTUs. You should check that.

If your house is set up only for gas stove service you could be looking at a new gas meter and running new pipe out to the street as well as running a new supply into the house. The tankless water heaters require big pipes, too.

Very good point, thank you.

 

[ron22]

Like everyone else here I would go with the Gas if you can. The higer efficiency the better. A few years ago I replaced my 1960's era gas Furnas with a 98% efficiency one and my bill went down noticeably. Dont remember the numbers but I do remember seeing a differance.

 

[Arnold]

There is quite a bit of natural gas drilling out here in the western states, but, just like oil, the amount a company will "harvest" is influenced by the price and the demand.

I don't know how big a home you have or how warm you keep it but I have never had a natural gas bill over $200/month in the winter and I live in Colorado.

The house is bigger than average, but not huge 3,000 sq ft on three floors above the basement. It is a three story stone colonial build 98 years ago. The construction is plaster on lathe on stone, I've been told that there is no way to insulate except by replacing all the interior walls and insulating while they are down. Big project. What we did do when we bought the house is replace all the windows with modern double pained windows. I am sure this has saved us considerable money.

We keep the house at 65 F except for two hours in the morning and three hours in the evening - weekends it is heated a bit more. We never have it set warmer than 70 F.

Old houses are different, I've almost always owned new construction before this. It is a five bedroom house with one bathroom. There are almost no closets. No closet near the entrance doors (front or back). Some mods have been made over time but when we bought it we got a good price because it needed quite a bit of work just to make it habitable. The prior owner was a very nice lady who was a widow and disabled (she had not been to the second floor in 14 years). It needed work.

 

[Arnold]

Like everyone else here I would go with the Gas if you can. The higer efficiency the better. A few years ago I replaced my 1960's era gas Furnas with a 98% efficiency one and my bill went down noticeably. Dont remember the numbers but I do remember seeing a differance.

Thanks Ron - so far everyone is on the same page as my wife. I had not yet decided and so was between pages.

 

[cameronbm]

Just to be contrary, there is a 3rd option -- electric thermal storage heating. The basic premise is that you buy off-peak power, heat a large mass (aka bunch-o-bricks) and have the thermal mass provide the house's heating demands.

They are pricey - the unit I've spec'ed for an office I'm remodeling is going to cost right around $13K (but that includes a heat pump and a complete tear-down & replacement of the duct system). My estimates indicate that the yearly cost to operate the unit will be $800-$1400 depending on whether I believe the promotional literature or extrapolate from a friend's actual costs (he's heating a 900 sq ft uninsulated shop, I'm heating a 2-story, 2400 total sq ft insulated office).

My decision was realtively simple since my only other fuel choice was oil and the power company is subsidizing a portion of the cost.

Bruce

 

[silver-eagle]

A friend of mine, with his new home, went with GEOTHERMAL. It seems like a terrific idea. His projected payback is 5 years over the cost. His system is similar to this.
My burner isn't ready for the scrapheap yet but I really thought about it when oil was $4+ a gallon.

 

[Missa]

In these parts heat pumps are the norm. I don't believe the climate in SE PA will allow for such however.

That said, if I had gas available (whether natural or propane) that would be my preferred option.

Have you considered a corn furnace?

Lots od people here have heat pumps. Air to Air usually need to be suplimented (with electric baseboard or fireplace) but Geo-thermal heat pumps work anywhere and are much more efficent, but much more expensive to install!

The only reason I would think of using Oil over gas would be to go to biodesiel. All you need is a basement reformer and a deal with the local fast food places to get all their waste oil. Cheep heat.

 

[Trapper John]

A friend of mine, with his new home, went with GEOTHERMAL. It seems like a terrific idea. His projected payback is 5 years over the cost. His system is similar to this.
My burner isn't ready for the scrapheap yet but I really thought about it when oil was $4+ a gallon.

Geothermal is certainly worth looking at if a person is planning to own for long enough to get the payback - and if the well cost is reasonable in the area.

Some features like a desuperheater for hot water assistance in the summer are pretty neat, too.


Trapper John

 

[Trapper John]

The only reason I would think of using Oil over gas would be to go to biodesiel. All you need is a basement reformer and a deal with the local fast food places to get all their waste oil. Cheep heat.

Making your own biodiesel isn't quite that simple. You need significant amounts of methanol and potassium hydroxide, both of which can be very dangerous if mishandled. I wouldn't want a 55 gallon drum of methanol in my basement, either. Garage, maybe...but not in the house.


Trapper John

 

[alaskaflyer]

We use ultra-small ultra-efficient LPG boilers in the small-to-medium sized government houses and office buildings here now. Everyone seems to be happy with them. I imagine they have a NG model too. I'll go look at one today and report back on the brand name and model.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Just move to Florida, man.

 

[mikea]

Just move to Florida, man.

Nah. It's too cold there.

I have seen college-age kids on the train from Midway here wearing the sandals and shorts with sweatshirts on a 40 degree day.

 

[Geico266]

Geeze guys, there are more ways to heat a house the gas & oil. I use a heat pump, propane, and wood. The least the poll writer could have done was add "other".

I think we need directions on how to write a poll.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Geeze guys, there are more ways to heat a house the gas & oil. I use a heat pump and wood. The least the poll write could have done was add "other".

I think we need directions on how to write a poll.

Well, if you are one man who is soliciting opinion on choices that he has already narrowed down to his personal preferences...adding additional choices might be a waste of time.

 

[Trapper John]

Geeze guys, there are more ways to heat a house the gas & oil. I use a heat pump, propane, and wood. The least the poll write could have done was add "other".

Yeah, and prairie sod-hut dwellers used to burn cow chips.

I think we need directions on how to write a poll.

I don't think the OP was asking for how many different ways are there to heat a house. He was interested in the choice between fuel oil and natural gas.


Trapper John

 

[CrashAxe]

I am currently installing a Geothermal Heat Pump in my house. My cost is going to be approximately $30,000 fully installed.

I was looking at $10K in Propane for this year, and the numbers look like my Electric will be about $130-150 per month for heating with the new Geothermal system.

My ground loop is in place, and I am waiting shipment on the heat pump. I am leaving my existing Propane Forced Air furnace in for redundancy-it is older, but still works well. We also heat using a wood fireplace with a blower. We have been using the fireplace the past few weeks to help cut down on our Propane use.

I am also planning on putting in a Solar Air Heating collection system in the Spring. The 4'X8' test box I built last year out of about $150 worth of Thermax sheeting and clear PVC glazing heated a 14X14 foot room from the normal 68 degrees up to 87 degrees on sunny days, even when it was -10 degrees outside!

When I wasn't running a fan to suck the heat out of the box, the interior of the box reached 150 degrees on those same sunny -10 degree days. If I hadn't have seen it myself, I never would have believed it. It is incredibly cheap and easy to DIY. You just need the Southern exposure to make it work...

 

[ron22]

A friend of mine, with his new home, went with GEOTHERMAL. It seems like a terrific idea. His projected payback is 5 years over the cost. His system is similar to this.

My friend has Geothermal installed and his heat bill is much higher than mine. But then again his house it 3 times the size of mine.
He went with Geothermal becuase of were he lives. Natural Gas was not an option so it was fuel oil or LP gas. Remeber with Geothermal you still need heat pumps. He has 3 one for each floor.
His pay back is at least 10 years now. Gophers eat through his loop feild and he had to have his complete loop feild dug up to find the problem. The total cost was around $10,000 after getting it all fixed and relandscaped. And a wife that keeps saying I told you not to get that.
He now has a part time job just tring to kill all the gophers on his property.

 

[Trapper John]

He now has a part time job just tring to kill all the gophers on his property.

The law of unintended consequences is alive and well!

Trapper John

 

[Rob Schaffer]

I have a similar situation in my house. A two story with attic, solid brick exterior walls with masonry,... 87 yrs old. With my old oil furnace, providing hot water too, I needed to keep oil but just cut costs over this winter and from here forward. We installed new double pane windows and saw a drop in heating last winter, and did a few more this year too.

With oil costs double what they were last year as of August (4.77/gal then,.... about 3.15 now), I made the decision to install a wood Pellet stove (Which I can burn corn in as well ). Now, I bought a ton of pellets for $275 and that should last me through January, with another 1/2-3/4 ton for Feb-April depending on how hard the main winter is here in the NorthEast. With the cold 30* temps at night, I'm running it at night to maintain 68* throughout most of the house, and don't run the radiators at all.

I don't have gas in my house, but it is at the street. A guy at work converted his oil furnace to a heat pump system this summer, but he already had forced air through most of his house and was able to reuse the duct work. Running new ductwork around an old house isn't to easy without much planning and renovation.

 

[Trapper John]

With oil costs double what they were last year as of August (4.77/gal then,.... about 3.15 now), I made the decision to install a wood Pellet stove (Which I can burn corn in as well ). Now, I bought a ton of pellets for $275 and that should last me through January, with another 1/2-3/4 ton for Feb-April depending on how hard the main winter is here in the NorthEast. With the cold 30* temps at night, I'm running it at night to maintain 68* throughout most of the house, and don't run the radiators at all.

Here's a useful calculator for fuel sources since you have options on what you can burn. You can download the linked excel spreadsheet and compare costs for different fuel sources in $/MBtu.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.pdf

Trapper John

 

[Arnold]

Here's a useful calculator for fuel sources since you have options on what you can burn. You can download the linked excel spreadsheet and compare costs for different fuel sources in $/MBtu.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.pdf

Trapper John

Thank you.

 

[Arnold]

Just move to Florida, man.

If it only were that easy I'd be there.

 

[Arnold]

Geeze guys, there are more ways to heat a house the gas & oil. I use a heat pump, propane, and wood. The least the poll write could have done was add "other".

I think we need directions on how to write a poll.

Those are the two options I am looking at and so the poll lists only those.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I have seen college-age kids on the train from Midway here wearing the sandals and shorts with sweatshirts on a 40 degree day.

I recall hundreds of people sunbathing on Bascom Hill in Madison, Wisc, one Saturday in early March when the mercury hit 42. I was one of 'em. After washing my motorcycle first, of course.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The US and North America will always have a much more plentiful supply of natural gas than oil.

My house has one of those 98% efficent furnaces. My "budget" gas bill, in the land of the biggest consumer ripoff in the US, is $125 a month. I got bills for over $300 in my drafty old apartment in Chicago.

Hmmm. Is it safe to mention that I used to work for Peoples Gas?

At the time, the company had just completed a "synthetic natural gas" plant to crack naphtha into natural gas (methane) - at the time I guess it made economic sense.

 

[Tom-D]

Hello folks, I am faced with the need to replace my very old oil burning boiler - the sooner the better.

My best 182 customer is deep into heating and plumbing he operates our local company called Trico plumbing and heating.

I'm sure he will advise you as well as any one.

Call Bill at 1-360-914-7223 during working hours Pacific time. He is in the industry and will know which hardware is best and worst.

My house is all gas, and he put it all in and we have not had single problem in 25 years.

 

[Tom-D]

I built this solarium for less than $3000, it heats our house on sunny days, and has cut our heat bills by half.

 

[gismo]

Another ting: You need to look at how big your gas service is. A Hi-E furnace might require a 1 1/2"(?) or larger gas supply pipe to give it the required BTUs. You should check that.

If your house is set up only for gas stove service you could be looking at a new gas meter and running new pipe out to the street as well as running a new supply into the house. The tankless water heaters require big pipes, too.

While it's possible that a really old gas meter would have insufficient capacity for a furnace, the feed to the house is usually under much higher pressure than the furnace will need so a large pipe from the street shouldn't be needed. At my house there's a pressure dropping regulator ahead of the meter which is fed by a relatively small diameter line. The meter itself has 1.25" pipe in and out but the output is fed through a 3/8" copper tube to another regulator at the furnace.

 

[mikea]

While it's possible that a really old gas meter would have insufficient capacity for a furnace, the feed to the house is usually under much higher pressure than the furnace will need so a large pipe from the street shouldn't be needed. At my house there's a pressure dropping regulator ahead of the meter which is fed by a relatively small diameter line. The meter itself has 1.25" pipe in and out but the output is fed through a 3/8" copper tube to another regulator at the furnace.

Oh, right. I didnt' consider voltage vs. current.

When I saw the tankless heater installed on "Ask This Old House" they ran the big pipe out to the meter. They didn't have to bump up the service before the meter.

 

[Tom-D]

My whole house is plumbed with 1" iron. it carries 40 PSI. and has a fuse at the street, that will shut off the supply if the pressure drops too fast.

OBTW our gas bill was $36 last 2 month billing. 15 Aug-15 Oct.