Noisy airplanes

[Noise Pollution]

Thankfully the airspace above the Grand Canyon is some of the most restricted in the nation. Goals for aircraft overflight management listed in the GCNP'S policy paper include:
1. Substantially restore natural quiet as a natural resource.
The goal is to address “the impairment of visitor enjoyment associated with flights over such units of the National Park System.”
The goal of those of us hoping to more fully enjoy our wilderness areas with all 5 senses is to reduce and eliminate the horrible sound of endless giant lawnmower sounding little planes ripping through the sky. The Grand Canyon is a start, and similar policy must be extended over all wilderness areas and major parks in the country. Unless it's an IFR day, I can hear little planes well over 50% of the time I'm taking a hike in a park that is quite a few kilometers from any airport. At what point would you consider plane noise excessive? What if an average of 2 planes are audible for 100% of the time? At what point do we recognize the right of people to be free from excessive noise pollution in wilderness areas? Listening to props and engines 10% of the time I'm in the woods I can deal with; up it to 60 or 70% and I'm frustrated to the point that I'm looking for ways to decrease it.

 

[DaleB]

Earplugs would work. Getting hysterical and exaggerating your case by an order of magnitude or more won't help you any. Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

"Giant lawnmower sounding little planes ripping through the sky"... sheesh.

 

[Anymouse]

You again??

 

[Jim Logajan]

If you are sincere and not trolling, and if you live anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Creswell, then I'd be happy to give you a free ride in an airplane so you can get an idea what motivates us to fly these planes. You'd learn why you are wasting your energies posting. Yes, we'd all love quieter aircraft, but you may as well be asking the able-bodied to amputate their legs to save the grass from being crushed under foot. Ain't going to happen.

There are some nice back-country grass strips in the Cascades that are pleasant to fly to (though some will close at the end of this month and not reopen till spring.) Maybe a flight along the coast or over Crater Lake sounds interesting? You can send me a private message on this forum if any of that interests you.

 

[Velocity173]

There is a policy over major park areas. It's called flying above 2,000 ft agl. Most of us are well above 2,000 ft. If you're in a national park/wildlife refuge vehicles and people talking would be just as loud as any small piston aircraft flying overhead.

 

[1600vw]

Why do we point the exhaust down to the ground. If we just pointed the exhaust up the noise on the ground would be reduced.

 

[Norman]

Why do we point the exhaust down to the ground. If we just pointed the exhaust up the noise on the ground would be reduced.

Because your plane would look more like a truck with twin exhaust stacks rising above the cabin.

 

[Dr. O]

Along with the twin stacks I'll need an air horn with a pull cord hanging down from the headliner.

oooh yeah and chrome hubcaps with big nuts.


to match the op.

 

[1600vw]

I have a video of my airplane flying the pattern taken from the ground. When I heard or saw this video I remarked, I should point my exhaust tips up. The noise would then not be going to the ground. I really do not have to go with stack pipes but just turned up tips.

I bet the noise would be greatly reduced on the ground and the people living around the airstrip would like this. I might do this, put turned up tips on my pipes for the non-flying people living close by whom have to hear my little airplane putting overhead.

Traveling from point a-b you come through an area, or come and go. Flying the pattern the people around must hear this airplane for an hour or until I land.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

Just think of all the cars that drive through parks every single day. And imagine all those people in those cars on all those paved roads and all that exhaust. And then walking and talking and snapping pictures and laughing and disposing of their trash and flushing park toilets and etc, etc, etc.

I say we take all those people require them to maintain at least 2000' of distance from any/all park grounds. They can use whatever vehicle they want - but it has to stay 2000' away.

Anyone up for a plane ride?

 

[RogerT]

If you are sincere and not trolling, and if you live anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Creswell, then I'd be happy to give you a free ride in an airplane so you can get an idea what motivates us to fly these planes. You'd learn why you are wasting your energies posting. Yes, we'd all love quieter aircraft, but you may as well be asking the able-bodied to amputate their legs to save the grass from being crushed under foot. Ain't going to happen.

There are some nice back-country grass strips in the Cascades that are pleasant to fly to (though some will close at the end of this month and not reopen till spring.) Maybe a flight along the coast or over Crater Lake sounds interesting? You can send me a private message on this forum if any of that interests you.

It's gorgeous out there. My brother used to keep his Cynet at Creswell before he sold it and I went flying with him when I was out there.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Sounds like the guy that flew all over the world trying to find someplace where he couldn't hear an airplane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thankfully the airspace above the Grand Canyon is some of the most restricted in the nation. Goals for aircraft overflight management listed in the GCNP'S policy paper include:
1. Substantially restore natural quiet as a natural resource.
The goal is to address “the impairment of visitor enjoyment associated with flights over such units of the National Park System.”
.

You need to do some better research. The airspace restrictions over the a Grand Canyon has very little to do with noise pollution.......unless by noise pollution you are referring to the sound if aluminum colliding.

 

[Palmpilot]

If you are sincere and not trolling, and if you live anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Creswell, then I'd be happy to give you a free ride in an airplane so you can get an idea what motivates us to fly these planes. You'd learn why you are wasting your energies posting. Yes, we'd all love quieter aircraft, but you may as well be asking the able-bodied to amputate their legs to save the grass from being crushed under foot. Ain't going to happen.

There are some nice back-country grass strips in the Cascades that are pleasant to fly to (though some will close at the end of this month and not reopen till spring.) Maybe a flight along the coast or over Crater Lake sounds interesting? You can send me a private message on this forum if any of that interests you.

Definitely trolling.

Since the guy knows the term "IFR", I think it's a safe bet that he has ridden in an airplane before, and has probably even flown them.

 

[Ted]

I don't think there is a single pilot out there who wouldn't be happy to have a quieter airplane. Remember, we sit in the things. The advent of ANR headsets has been wonderful for noise reduction, but I would be even happier to not have to wear any headset in the plane and be able to have a conversation like what I do in my car. I think in that regard, there is a great deal of agreement. In the plane that I fly, take-off RPM is high and the props are loud. I would love to put quieter props on or, better yet, have geared engines that make it quieter for everyone.

Prop noise and exhaust noise are the two main sources. Most of it comes from the propellers. Modern propellers have been designed with an intent of reducing noise. They've made some good progress, but have more progress left to make. The exhaust is other source. Turbos help a great deal in this regard since they act as a muffler. The issue with most mufflers is a combination of weight, safety, and space. If the muffler fails, it can create an exhaust blockage resulting in a lack of power condition. In an airplane that is a serious problem. Sticking the exhaust upwards would be one potential solution, but you'd also have to figure out a means of routing it that would also keep the noise out of the cabin. This adds weight and cost, two significant negatives.

Noise regulations have been in place for jets (the biggest noise offenders) for a long time and they continue to get stricter. This handles the vast majority of the noise complaints well. The rest, well, some people will just always find a reason to complain. There's too much noise pollution here in Ohio, but back in PA, I could hear jets overhead at 30,000+ ft.

 

[John Baker]

I love the sound of airplane engines. I think I would be thoroughly bummed out if I did not hear at least one flying overhead. How can anyone not like the sound of airplane engines? That is the sound that connects us as humans, it lets all the other creatures know just who is at the top of the food chain, and why.

For my own part, I think that anyone who dislikes that lovely music flying overhead is a traitor to his species and just flat out should not be allowed in our wilderness parks.

-John

 

[MSPAviator]

The sound you hear is the sound of freedom.

 

[Silvaire]

If all airplanes were forced to completely avoid overflight of all perceived "wilderness" park areas just think of the increased carbon footprint that general aviation would produce due to inefficient flight paths.

You wouldn't want that now, would you?

Based on the number of people that now live in the continental US there really is no true "wilderness" area. If you really want to go into the "wilderness" you'd have to go far north and you'd either have to walk for several weeks or months or ride in an airplane to get there. There are other people on the planet with you, learn to live with that fact.

 

[Palmpilot]

I once called up base ops at Moffett Field and told them how much I was enjoying seeing and hearing some WW II aircraft (from the Collings Foundation) flying over my neighborhood. Then I went over and took a tour of the aircraft.

 

[Noise Pollution]

I love the sound of airplane engines. I think I would be thoroughly bummed out if I did not hear at least one flying overhead. How can anyone not like the sound of airplane engines? That is the sound that connects us as humans, it lets all the other creatures know just who is at the top of the food chain, and why.

For my own part, I think that anyone who dislikes that lovely music flying overhead is a traitor to his species and just flat out should not be allowed in our wilderness parks.

-John

I feel you John. I remember reading about some motorcycle gang members that made recordings of the sound of their bikes so that they could hear them while not riding. I think my best strategy would be to give up and join you guys and fly myself... that way rather than annoyance at that big chainsaw in the sky my heart would go pitter patter.... flying is cool as hell man, just wish we had a soundless Prius for the sky.... looking forward to solar powered prop-less planes someday.

 

[MAKG1]

I doubt the CANG cared much. NASA doesn't run airfield ops, but they do run the base. The appropriate office to call would be either the center director's, or Anna Eshoo's, or maybe NASA HQ. Not the tower or "base" ops. Ops doesn't make decisions.

 

[Norman]

Only those born deaf can enjoy the quiet Peaceful Skies is looking for, and given the choice I think they'd prefer the noise.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I feel you John. I remember reading about some motorcycle gang members that made recordings of the sound of their bikes so that they could hear them while not riding. I think my best strategy would be to give up and join you guys and fly myself... that way rather than annoyance at that big chainsaw in the sky my heart would go pitter patter.... flying is cool as hell man, just wish we had a soundless Prius for the sky.... looking forward to solar powered prop-less planes someday.

The best flying is silent flying. Basejumping, Hanggliding, Paragliding, Speedflying/riding, Sailplanes(post launch.) Turn off NPR, put down the organic fair trade tea and get out there and quietly fly. Flying GA airplanes is akin to driving an old aircooled bug around loud, uncomfortable and unpleasant.

 

[N747JB]

Airplane noise is music to my ears, loud music, now that's annoying!!

 

[Noise Pollution]

If you are sincere and not trolling, and if you live anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Creswell, then I'd be happy to give you a free ride in an airplane so you can get an idea what motivates us to fly these planes. You'd learn why you are wasting your energies posting. Yes, we'd all love quieter aircraft, but you may as well be asking the able-bodied to amputate their legs to save the grass from being crushed under foot. Ain't going to happen.
There are some nice back-country grass strips in the Cascades that are pleasant to fly to (though some will close at the end of this month and not reopen till spring.) Maybe a flight along the coast or over Crater Lake sounds interesting? You can send me a private message on this forum if any of that interests you.

Thanks much for the offer Jim, but my wife said you would probably either A: throw me out of your plane over Crater Lake, or B: Take off without me while I'm taking a leak at one of those remote grass strips in the Cascades. In reality, I think she's even more afraid that I would come home alive and wanting to buy an airplane. Sincerely, I appreciate your generosity, but I can't let myself be co-opted.

 

[Noise Pollution]

The best flying is silent flying. Basejumping, Hanggliding, Paragliding, Speedflying/riding, Sailplanes(post launch.) Turn off NPR, put down the organic fair trade tea and get out there and quietly fly. Flying GA airplanes is akin to driving an old aircooled bug around loud, uncomfortable and unpleasant.

As if I've got the nads for those activities. And how the hell did you know I love NPR and fair trade?

 

[ClimbnSink]

You said you wanted to fly, so it was obvious, as all pilot minded folks love NPR and fair trade.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You need one of these

 

[MAKG1]

Pete, get another hobby. This is getting tiresome.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Thanks much for the offer Jim, but my wife said you would probably either A: throw me out of your plane over Crater Lake,

Tell your wife I would never pollute a beautiful pristine lake like that!

or B: Take off without me while I'm taking a leak at one of those remote grass strips in the Cascades.

That would be downright ungentlemanly. Besides, I'd only abandon you at airports that had ground transportation available.

In reality, I think she's even more afraid that I would come home alive and wanting to buy an airplane.

Shucks, even I don't own an airplane. She's invited along too, by the way. One of you can sit in back to subdue me in case you think I'm about to throw the right-seater out the plane. I don't think you realize how hard it is to throw two people out of a small plane and try to fly it!

Sincerely, I appreciate your generosity, but I can't let myself be co-opted.

You will be assimilated! Seriously though, the offer stands. I'd be flying the noisy airplane anyway - no point letting that noise disturbance go entirely to waste.

I wish I had some good photos of countryside seen from the air, but not much.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Thankfully the airspace above the Grand Canyon is some of the most restricted in the nation. Goals for aircraft overflight management listed in the GCNP'S policy paper include:
1. Substantially restore natural quiet as a natural resource.
The goal is to address “the impairment of visitor enjoyment associated with flights over such units of the National Park System.”
The goal of those of us hoping to more fully enjoy our wilderness areas with all 5 senses is to reduce and eliminate the horrible sound of endless giant lawnmower sounding little planes ripping through the sky. The Grand Canyon is a start, and similar policy must be extended over all wilderness areas and major parks in the country. Unless it's an IFR day, I can hear little planes well over 50% of the time I'm taking a hike in a park that is quite a few kilometers from any airport. At what point would you consider plane noise excessive? What if an average of 2 planes are audible for 100% of the time? At what point do we recognize the right of people to be free from excessive noise pollution in wilderness areas? Listening to props and engines 10% of the time I'm in the woods I can deal with; up it to 60 or 70% and I'm frustrated to the point that I'm looking for ways to decrease it.

You really ought to get your facts straight before posting here. A quick check of Air Nav traffic numbers indicates that there are an average of 631 flights PER DAY from the two main airports in the park. These are primarily sight seeing flights that follow the same route day after day. Sure the traffic is constrained to certain paths, but it is intensive. Get a clue.

 

[N801BH]

Thankfully the airspace above the Grand Canyon is some of the most restricted in the nation. Goals for aircraft overflight management listed in the GCNP'S policy paper include:
1. Substantially restore natural quiet as a natural resource.
The goal is to address “the impairment of visitor enjoyment associated with flights over such units of the National Park System.”
The goal of those of us hoping to more fully enjoy our wilderness areas with all 5 senses is to reduce and eliminate the horrible sound of endless giant lawnmower sounding little planes ripping through the sky. The Grand Canyon is a start, and similar policy must be extended over all wilderness areas and major parks in the country. Unless it's an IFR day, I can hear little planes well over 50% of the time I'm taking a hike in a park that is quite a few kilometers from any airport. At what point would you consider plane noise excessive? What if an average of 2 planes are audible for 100% of the time? At what point do we recognize the right of people to be free from excessive noise pollution in wilderness areas? Listening to props and engines 10% of the time I'm in the woods I can deal with; up it to 60 or 70% and I'm frustrated to the point that I'm looking for ways to decrease it.

As a pilot and aircraft owner based at the Jackson Hole Airport I can shed some light on your pet peeve... This airport is the ONLY one in the world that is located in a National Park.. It was here before Grand Teton National Park was created 60 years ago.

All aircraft based here and flying here try VERY hard to minimize their noise signature. Also keep in mind we have 100's of thousands of acres of Wilderness surrounding this airport too.....

Lately the BIG topic around here is cell phone towers and their associated "unsightlyness".... The VERY treehuggers who want all cell towers and aircraft banned from the area are the EXACT same ones who use their cell phone to call 911 when they slip and fall off a cliff, or twist their ankle or injure themselves while climbing the Grand Tetons... Funny how when THEY need help, those UGLY cell towers are beautiful and noisy helicopters are music to their ears when they need to be rushed to the local hospital to save their lives.... Kinda ironic ain't it....

 

[Palmpilot]

I doubt the CANG cared much. NASA doesn't run airfield ops, but they do run the base. The appropriate office to call would be either the center director's, or Anna Eshoo's, or maybe NASA HQ. Not the tower or "base" ops. Ops doesn't make decisions.

Just to be clear, my statement to base ops was sincere, not sarcastic. I really do enjoy the sound of old radial engines over my neighborhood, and my only complaint about either those or jet fighters is that I can't get outside fast enough to admire them as they fly over.

I figured that they probably get noise complaints (and probably log them), and I wanted them to know that not everyone who lives under the Moffett pattern hates hearing aircraft overhead.

I doubt that Anna Eshoo's office would give a rat's patooty what I think one way or the other.

 

[Palmpilot]

Sincerely, I appreciate your generosity, but I can't let myself be co-opted.

"Co-opted"? What do you think he's going to do, exert some kind of mind control on you?

Refusing to experience something because you are afraid it will infuence you is closed-mindedness, pure and simple.

 

[Noise Pollution]

You really ought to get your facts straight before posting here. A quick check of Air Nav traffic numbers indicates that there are an average of 631 flights PER DAY from the two main airports in the park. These are primarily sight seeing flights that follow the same route day after day. Sure the traffic is constrained to certain paths, but it is intensive. Get a clue.

To my knowledge there is no wilderness area in the US that restricts overflights to the extent that the Grand Canyon does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ClimbnSink]

To my knowledge there is no wilderness area in the US that restricts overflights to the extent that the Grand Canyon does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Niagara Falls has a similar scheme. For the same reason.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

To my knowledge there is no wilderness area in the US that restricts overflights to the extent that the Grand Canyon does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Grand Canyon is not a wilderness area....it is a National Park. If you cannot even grasp the nomenclature, how can you expect to make a convincing argument? I could tell you about the flight restrictions in various areas around the country, but you really seem to be needing the education. There is this thingy on the interweb called Google.......

 

[ChitDisturber]

, just wish we had a soundless Prius for the sky.... looking forward to solar powered prop-less planes someday.

I just barfed a little in my mouth

Everytime you post something like this, I'm going to drop kick a snowy clover.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I can't believe this obvious troll continues to pull in actual replies.

 

[Palmpilot]

...just wish we had a soundless Prius for the sky.... looking forward to solar powered prop-less planes someday.

The Prius runs on gasoline. I went to see a solar powered airplane when it was here, and it was very cool, but given that it only goes about 35 miles an hour, it's hard to see how solar power could become practical for air transportation (or for cars either, for that matter).

As for propless airplanes, we have those now, but they are much noisier than propeller driven ones.