No run-up on taxiways

Morne

Morne

Line Up and Wait
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Morne
So I was flying about Thursday and stopped in to chat with the guys who will be painting my plane next month. As I taxied to depart, I noticed a sign on the taxiway saying "no run-up on taxiways". What's the best way to deal with this?

Options:
1 - If you knew about it beforehand you could've done your run-up on the ramp.
2 - Turn around and go back to the ramp for the run up.
3 - If no one else is in the pattern, announce "taking the active" and do the run up on the runway.
4 - Ignore the sign and do the run up on the taxiway anyway.

Not doing a run-up is not an option.

Thoughts?
 
If I were already out there I probably would have chosen #4 and then just put a note in my AFD for the next time. I wouldn't feel comfortable parking on the runway. (No review mirrors)!

How did you handle it?
 
Morne said:
Options:
1 - If you knew about it beforehand you could've done your run-up on the ramp.
2 - Turn around and go back to the ramp for the run up.
3 - If no one else is in the pattern, announce "taking the active" and do the run up on the runway.
4 - Ignore the sign and do the run up on the taxiway anyway.

Not doing a run-up is not an option.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
#3 is not a good option... :rolleyes:
 
Most airports have a wide paved spot or a loop off the taxiway at both ends of a runway. If there's no run-up pad, I'd do my run-up on the access taxiway, 90* to the runway, so I didn't sandblast any airplanes taxiing behind me. That way I'd still be able to see any aircraft on final approach. I like to have my engine nice and warm before I subject it to a run-up, thus I usually do it after getting to the departure end of the runway.
 
#4. If the airport authority is too stupid to put the sign up BEFORE you get on the taxiway, then too bad. Though, when I am at towered fields, I do my run up before I leave the ramp.

Edit: Not #3. That's the worst idea.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
#3 is not a good option... :rolleyes:
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It would seem that there is some disagreement on this option. Would you care to elaborate on why you view it as "not good"?
 
Morne said:
It would seem that there is some disagreement on this option. Would you care to elaborate on why you view it as "not good"?
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How do you know there isn't a plane w/o a radio in the pattern? How do you know there isn't an airplane with an emergency? Don't be a douche and dawdle on the runway.
 
EdFred said:
How do you know there isn't a plane w/o a radio in the pattern? How do you know there isn't an airplane with an emergency? Don't be a douche and dawdle on the runway.
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Feminine products notwithstanding...

Whether or not someone without a radio is in the pattern isn't the right criteria, true. But you CAN see if someone is on base or final (or even the latter part of downwind), regardless of radio calls. If no one is visible in these portions of the pattern, and the radio is otherwise quiet, why not?

My point about listening to the radio was about being curteous and NOT tying up the runway if someone is out practicing their landings or whatnot. Runways at uncontrolled fields get dawdled on all the time, especially the ones with incomplete taxiways where you have to back-taxi on the runway.
 
Morne said:
Feminine products notwithstanding...

Whether or not someone without a radio is in the pattern isn't the right criteria, true. But you CAN see if someone is on base or final (or even the latter part of downwind), regardless of radio calls. If no one is visible in these portions of the pattern, and the radio is otherwise quiet, why not?

My point about listening to the radio was about being curteous and NOT tying up the runway if someone is out practicing their landings or whatnot. Runways at uncontrolled fields get dawdled on all the time, especially the ones with incomplete taxiways where you have to back-taxi on the runway.
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In an emergency who says they are going to be flying the correct base or final. Or even landing upwind? Runways are for taking off and landing, not performing checklists and run ups.
 
Run it up as you're rolling out -- how long does it take, anyway?

Unless you're on a carrier deck you have a few seconds on the runway once you pull out. So you reach full power 50' down the runway?
 
Morne said:
especially the ones with incomplete taxiways where you have to back-taxi on the runway.
Click to expand...

But if you're back-taxiing, you're at least pointed in a direction that would allow you to see the guy that's on the wrong freq that's practicing insanely steep approaches or simulated engine out circle-to-lands that you wouldn't otherwise see with your back facing the approach end of the runway while doing a runup.
 
EdFred said:
Edit: Not #3. That's the worst idea.
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Maybe...but in some airplanes #3 is the only practical option.

Every DC-3 operator I know and have flown with does the final runup on the runway.....B-25 too.
 
Morne said:
So I was flying about Thursday and stopped in to chat with the guys who will be painting my plane next month. As I taxied to depart, I noticed a sign on the taxiway saying "no run-up on taxiways". What's the best way to deal with this?

Options:
1 - If you knew about it beforehand you could've done your run-up on the ramp.
2 - Turn around and go back to the ramp for the run up.
3 - If no one else is in the pattern, announce "taking the active" and do the run up on the runway.
4 - Ignore the sign and do the run up on the taxiway anyway.

Not doing a run-up is not an option.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


Why the sign?

If it is to keep the noise at the FBO end of the field, then 3 or 4 are no different and result in the same problem.

If it's because there is a lot of loose gravel and you will destroy your prop, 4 does not sound like a good idea.

If it's because someone objects to the delay when they are taxiing behind you, well too late for 2 3 or 4

If it's because someone got peppered with dust from prop blast and decided on the "easy" solution, point the airplane in a "nice" direction and 4 should be good enough.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe...but in some airplanes #3 is the only practical option.

Every DC-3 operator I know and have flown with does the final runup on the runway.....B-25 too.
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My experience suggests that folks flying DC-3's and B-25's know how to get on the runway, do the checks, and get gone almost as fast as most light plane pilots can just roll and go. OTOH, the "average" light plane pilot seems to take 2 minutes or more to complete their run-up, going back and forth between the printed checklist, the engine controls, and the engine instruments. If you can get on, run up, and go in 15 seconds or less, great. If not, don't sit in the middle of the runway with your back to traffic while you do those checks. And I'm not saying to rush your checklists, either, just to recognize where you fit in that picture and do things accordingly.
 
Ron Levy said:
My experience suggests that folks flying DC-3's and B-25's know how to get on the runway, do the checks, and get gone almost as fast as most light plane pilots can just roll and go. OTOH, the "average" light plane pilot seems to take 2 minutes or more to complete their run-up, going back and forth between the printed checklist, the engine controls, and the engine instruments. If you can get on, run up, and go in 15 seconds or less, great. If not, don't sit in the middle of the runway with your back to traffic while you do those checks. And I'm not saying to rush your checklists, either, just to recognize where you fit in that picture and do things accordingly.
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That is very true.

The point I would make is that you don't have to do the entire 'Before Takeoff Checklist' all at once sitting on the runway. The stuff like flight control checks, trim, checking flight and nav instruments..even some engine stuff like prop feathering can all be done on the taxiway and then all you need to is announce, visually clear base and final, line up and check the mags/props and you are ready to launch.
 
ScottM said:
If you chose #3 where were you planning on taking the active?
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This. Everything here points to this being a non-towered field and saying "active" is a waste of electrons and does not help your fellow pilots. Substitute the runway numbers (ie, one-niner) and it's not sooo bad, if, as others have said, you can do it very quickly.

Ryan
 
There was an edit...prior to that it seemed like someone was supporting #3.

I like the "break up the pre take off checklist" idea. Do what you can on the ramp seems like a good idea.
 
If no one is visible in these portions of the pattern, and the radio is otherwise quiet, why not?
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Just because "no one is visible in these portions of the pattern) doesn't mean they're not there. And that's not true only in Area 51, either. I for one am not willing to risk sitting with my back to the preferred final for more than a couple of seconds at an uncontrolled airport.

Runways at uncontrolled fields get dawdled on all the time, especially the ones with incomplete taxiways where you have to back-taxi on the runway.
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Lots of unsafe practices occur "all the time." Doesn't make them a good option.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is very true.

The point I would make is that you don't have to do the entire 'Before Takeoff Checklist' all at once sitting on the runway. The stuff like flight control checks, trim, checking flight and nav instruments..even some engine stuff like prop feathering can all be done on the taxiway and then all you need to is announce, visually clear base and final, line up and check the mags/props and you are ready to launch.
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Yes - and also at high altitude airports it is sometimes necessary to do full power run ups in order to set the mixture for takeoff. You can't really do that in the runup area, you need to do that on the field so you can start rolling once your mixture's set. Doesn't take a long time.
 
I really don't like sitting on the active for anything but landing and departure if there is a reasonable alternative. I don't do a run up for each departure; if I flew in and am departing fairly quickly, I do the departure checklist but not a run up. I can tell if I'm making full power on the departure which is part of my departure check.
I'd do what has been said in the worst case, do everything but the runup before taking the active. I probably actually leave after checking mags. while the rpm was still up.

Best,

Dave
 
I'm confused as to why mag checks or mixture settings have to be done on the runway. If you need full power to set your mixture, hold the brakes and do it before you get on the runway. Checking the mags 15 seconds later on the runway is going to make a difference?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I don't do a run up for each departure; if I flew in and am departing fairly quickly, I do the departure checklist but not a run up. I can tell if I'm making full power on the departure which is part of my departure check.
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Maybe so, but there are other things which need checking, which is why I do a run-up on every departure after an engine shutdown/restart. If I didn't, I would not have discovered the right engine prop cable that became disconnected from the arm on the governor on my Cougar until after I was airborne, which could have been no fun at all if my first move with the right prop control had been to try to feather for an engine failure after that takeoff. And I'd not been on the ground for more than a few minutes, either.
 
Amelia said:
Most airports have a wide paved spot or a loop off the taxiway at both ends of a runway. If there's no run-up pad, I'd do my run-up on the access taxiway, 90* to the runway, so I didn't sandblast any airplanes taxiing behind me. That way I'd still be able to see any aircraft on final approach. I like to have my engine nice and warm before I subject it to a run-up, thus I usually do it after getting to the departure end of the runway.
Click to expand...

At my home base, "improvements" made in the last few years has eliminated almost all of the normal places for runnups. The manager suggests that runnups be completed before leaving the ramp or hangar alley but that causes problems in many cases. Plus in the winter I like to use the time it takes to taxi to the runway to warm the engine before advancing power for a runnup.

My reaction would be to ignore the sign and simply pay attention to where my prop blast is pointed when doing the runnup as I always try to do with or without signs.
 
I think I'd just ignore the sign.
 
EdFred said:
I'm confused as to why mag checks or mixture settings have to be done on the runway. If you need full power to set your mixture, hold the brakes and do it before you get on the runway. Checking the mags 15 seconds later on the runway is going to make a difference?
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In an airplane like the DC-3, you do the mag check at Field Baro that's around 30" MP....pretty high and at most GA airports, your tail is still facing the taxiway while you are holding short, so if there is anyone behind you when you are running up, you will flip them. Plus, if your brakes fail while at the high power setting.....it is kind of nice to have the runway in front of you instead of offroading toward a fence.

As far as the application for GA airplanes, I don't trust typical GA brakes (any more than I would trust them in the DC-3) in tight runup areas so I'll adjust my mixture for DA on the runway.
 
Morne said:
There was an edit...prior to that it seemed like someone was supporting #3.
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I remember you are a newer pilot so i'll explain #3

Using the phrase "taking the active" is frowned upon. I know you hear people use it all the time, but it is incorrect. How is anyone in the pattern / area supposed to know which way you will be departing? or which runway is active? Here's a scenario which will illustrate how dangerous "taking the active" can be.

Lets say someone makes a radio call while they are a few miles out
"NXXX on a 45 degree entry to the pattern for runway 3"

You don't hear this call as you are performing a run up on the ramp and have not tuned into the CTAF yet.

30 seconds later, you tune up the freq, winds are light so you select runway 21 and announce "taking the active"

The other aircraft just announced runway 3 as the active, so he is assuming you heard him and are departing runway 3. He does not bother to look for you, he is running his gumps check and thinks you will be no factor as he is just getting into the downwind leg. Now you have an airplane departing runway 21, and an airplane setting up to land on runway 3, with neither pilot having a clue anything is amiss.

So, when you are announcing a departure, say the runway number on the CTAF. "NXXX departing runway 21" or similar
 
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Fearless Tower said:
In an airplane like the DC-3, you do the mag check at Field Baro that's around 30" MP....pretty high and at most GA airports, your tail is still facing the taxiway while you are holding short, so if there is anyone behind you when you are running up, you will flip them. Plus, if your brakes fail while at the high power setting.....it is kind of nice to have the runway in front of you instead of offroading toward a fence.

As far as the application for GA airplanes, I don't trust typical GA brakes (any more than I would trust them in the DC-3) in tight runup areas so I'll adjust my mixture for DA on the runway.
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Well, if anyone is behind me, that's their own mistake. If I am on the parallel taxiway, and there's someone that's turned to enter the runway I don't get behind em. I also don't get within several plane lengths when they are in front of me on the parallel.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In an airplane like the DC-3, you do the mag check at Field Baro that's around 30" MP....pretty high and at most GA airports, your tail is still facing the taxiway while you are holding short, so if there is anyone behind you when you are running up, you will flip them. Plus, if your brakes fail while at the high power setting.....it is kind of nice to have the runway in front of you instead of offroading toward a fence.

As far as the application for GA airplanes, I don't trust typical GA brakes (any more than I would trust them in the DC-3) in tight runup areas so I'll adjust my mixture for DA on the runway.
Click to expand...

I had to go around last week because of a caribou on the runway doing a run up. I was wondering what he was doing there for so long.. now I know.

I wouldn't run up on the runway in a light plane, it is possible for someone not to see you in a small aircraft on a huge runway. However it is kinda hard to miss a caribou (or dc-3)
 
Sac Arrow said:
You can but it's advantageous to do that on the runway - less gravel, and you don't have idle mixture problems if the DA is really high.
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Well, I suppose if there's less gravel on the runway than elsewhere, that makes sense, but that's not to my experience a common issue. As for idle mixture problems, if you set the mixture for takeoff at full power at the end of your runup, the engine is hardly likely to foul itself over the difference between the recommended ground setting and the max power setting at those DA's before you get in position for takeoff. But if you anticipate a lengthy wait (like half an hour or something like that), I suppose that's a consideration.
 
dell30rb said:
I had to go around last week because of a caribou on the runway doing a run up.
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You mean this guy?
caribou-wallpaper-522.jpg

Yeah, I'd go around for him if he was running up the runway.
 
That was my first reaction, too, seeing the lower case "c".

maybe he meant this guy

1313886.jpg


or this guy

bou2.jpg


:wink2:

Ron Levy said:
You mean this guy?
.
.
.
Yeah, I'd go around for him if he was running up the runway.
Click to expand...
 
dell30rb said:
I had to go around last week because of a caribou on the runway doing a run up. I was wondering what he was doing there for so long.. now I know.

I wouldn't run up on the runway in a light plane, it is possible for someone not to see you in a small aircraft on a huge runway. However it is kinda hard to miss a caribou (or dc-3)
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True, and I don't normally run up small planes on the runway. The main point is that if you know what you are doing, it really doesn't take that long at all to do the power part of the runup on the runway before you start the roll. Traffic in the pattern is really not much more of a threat than it is when you take the runway to depart in the first place.

I look at it this way - if I am just passing through and not likely to come back to the airport, I'm probably going to say screw the sign and do my runup on the taxiway near the approach end of the runway. If, I am going to be flying there regularly, then I am probably more inclined to 'attempt' to follow their rules in as safe a manner as possible which in this case would be to do my pre-takeoff checks before taking the runway and do the power/mags for the runway with something like "will be departing runway XX, with a momentary delay on the runway".
 
gismo said:
At my home base, "improvements" made in the last few years has eliminated almost all of the normal places for runnups. The manager suggests that runnups be completed before leaving the ramp or hangar alley but that causes problems in many cases. Plus in the winter I like to use the time it takes to taxi to the runway to warm the engine before advancing power for a runnup.

My reaction would be to ignore the sign and simply pay attention to where my prop blast is pointed when doing the runnup as I always try to do with or without signs.
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I also noticed that issue at FCM. Even worse I was departing IFR and had to wait for a release. There really was no good way for me to get out of the way, thankfully they released me in fairly short order, but I was about to ask for permission to taxi onto the runway then onto the next taxiway so that I wouldn't be holding up VFR departures.

These "improvements" have sure screwed up operations there. I don't remember it being as big of a cluster when I lived up there.
 
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