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eetrojan

eetrojan

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New Students – Choice of Airplane – SportStar (LSA?) versus C-172

My son and I are both beginning our journey into the world of flight! He’s 17. I’m 6’1, 205 and he’s 5’7, 120 lbs.
We met with a nearby school, talked to a couple of instructors, and took our intro flights in a SportStar. The school also has Cesna 172s, which cost about $25 per hour more.

The CSI’s are recommending the SportStar because it’s “more responsive” and cheaper, but I wanted some opinions before we commit. Any issues with learning in a SportStar? I understand that the SportStar is an LSA? Does that matter, good or bad?

We are both taking our Class 3 medical exams with the understanding that we will work toward a private pilot certificate.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
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Do you fit nicely in the sport star with your CFI? Can you carry fuel fuel (or at least plenty of fuel) with both of you in there?

I'd probably take the cheaper sportstar

When you get your pilot's license, if you want to fly the 172 expect to spend about 3-5 hours learning how to fly it with a CFI before you're able to take it out by yourself. You should find it a relatively easy transition.

Also, BEFORE you go for your medical make sure you don't have any issues that will prevent it from being issued. You can research this stuff online. If you have a condition that requires extra paperwork you are way, way better off getting that stuff together in advance, before applying for a medical.
 
The $25/hr difference adds up to a minimum savings of $2000 for the both of you - and no doubt more. The LSA aspect is not a detriment - if anything, a "more responsive" plane may make for better training.
 
Using an LSA plane is fine as long as you don't use an LSA only instructor. You need a regular CFI for the duel hours to count toward your Private which sounds as if that is what you want to do. Also ask if the small plane has all the instrumentation you will need for the PPL checkride.

Also with the medical. Make sure that you do not put yourself in the position of having the medical denied. Once it has been denied you are inelligible for an LSA certificate. If you find out before you take the medical that you would be denied, then you will not have been denied thus could pursue an LSA cert. Not as good, but better than having to walk away from flying for good.

Ask the medical examiner for a medical "consultation."

I wish I could have done this with my son when he was a teenager. We flew a tiny bit together, but I did not have the where with all to buy him his PPL. We played golf instead. The main thing is that you are doing something together with him before he gets away.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
I'll add to what the others suggest.

Finding a sensible way to save money in your training is always worth it. If you can confirm you can get your PPL by operating the SportStar, do it.

On the medical front, especially for you, Dad, make sure you don't have any disqualifying conditions. Many conditions, like Diabetes and some cardiac conditions are disqualifying under the primary rules. But an item known as a "Special Issuance" or SI are permitted. This is the "we at the FAA know you've got a health condition that needs monitoring. But as long as you and your doctor tell us you are properly managing your condition, we'll issue your certificate and let you fly".

If you're not certain about a health condition, check in with Dr. Bruce Chien in the Medical Topics forum. Share the details with him and us and get fully informed before you fill out the FAA 8500-8 form.

And as you both continue your training, be sure to share with us your experiences, and ask your questions. We're a good group and only bite if you ask us to.
 
Re: New Students – Choice of Airplane – SportStar (LSA?) versus C-172

I flew the Sportstar last year for my flight review the only issue I have with them is adjusting the rudder pedals is a real pain. However, saving a thousand dollars or more over the course of your training would probably make it worthwhile. You should also take your demo flight in it to see how you fit. After you get your PPC it should be easy to get checked out in any of their other planes.

By the way, are you looking at Sunrise Aviation?
 
Only other thing is that if you or your son have any medical issues which in your wildest imagination might have an effect on your medical, talk to Dr. Bruce Chien on the Medical forum of this site before you visit an Aviation Medical Examiner.
 
> if you or your son have any medical issues

+1

ADD, ADHD, SSRIs, alcohol/drug diversions or actions (not just convictions),
daily meds? Any episodes of unconciousness? Seizures? Etc.

> medical consultation

+1

Not all AME's will "do" a consultation. Some consider it subterfuge. It isn't. When
you sit for a consultation ... do NOT do it on official paper. Do NOT sign anything.
I suggest that you seek out an AME that does "Special Issuances." It's not that you
need one ... you want a guy/gal that is REALLY plugged-in to OKC ... and they guys
doing a lot of SI's and HIMS work ... are typically the gold standard.

Learn in the LSA and save the $$$. It doesn't matter what you learn in,
the first transition is always the toughest. The second transition? Not so
much. <g>
 
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My first 30 hours of training was in a Sportstar. They are a blast to fly. It will spoil you and you may never want to train in a 172. As Doc said, make sure your instructor is a CFI or CFII, not a light sport instructor.
 
Old Geek said:
My first 30 hours of training was in a Sportstar. They are a blast to fly. It will spoil you and you may never want to train in a 172. As Doc said, make sure your instructor is a CFI or CFII, not a light sport instructor.
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That's been my problem after training in a newer DA20. Loved flying that plane.
 
If you fly the 172 you may be able to ride along for each others lessons and learn from each other. It may not be cost effective but it beats sitting in the FBO while you wait for each other to fly!
 
Mike5250 said:
If you fly the 172 you may be able to ride along for each others lessons and learn from each other. It may not be cost effective but it beats sitting in the FBO while you wait for each other to fly!
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This is a good point. If you and your son think you can regularly schedule lessons together (one flies while one watches, land switch seats & repeat) the 172 may pay off in the long run. At $25/hr difference, you'll have to be sure to do that enough to see the payoff. Otherwise, go for the cheaper option to learn.

Nothing to do with the plane, but try to double up on your ground schools, too. No point in doing those separately.
 
crash7 said:
This is a good point. If you and your son think you can regularly schedule lessons together (one flies while one watches, land switch seats & repeat) the 172 may pay off in the long run. At $25/hr difference, you'll have to be sure to do that enough to see the payoff. Otherwise, go for the cheaper option to learn.

Nothing to do with the plane, but try to double up on your ground schools, too. No point in doing those separately.
Click to expand...

Agreed.. it may very well be worth it if you can ride along together, it will speed up your learning enough to where you will actually be able to recoup a portion of that extra cost.
 
dell30rb said:
Agreed.. it may very well be worth it if you can ride along together, it will speed up your learning enough to where you will actually be able to recoup a portion of that extra cost.
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Plus give you guys a good chance to review each other's performance and learn from it.

"Hey Dad, remember you can only count that as one landing... not the number of times you bounced it."
 
Sounds like a great adventure. Fly whichever one you like more. Cheaper is better as long as the maintenance is good.

Use a full-blown CFI as others have mentioned and ditto the advice on the medical.

The CFI will tell you if someone's too heavy to train successfully in the LSA. Depends on what the CFI weighs. If they're saying to use the LSA, you're good. You'll learn the weight and performance issues on the way to your license.
 
Thanks all. As an update, we decided to stick with the SportStars. The comment about riding together was a great thought, but I think I’m hearing that we may develop a better “touch” by learning in the LSA. The instructor is indeed a CFI, so the instruction will lead to a private pilot certificate.

On the medical, I completed a draft 8500-8 application, and aside from a childhood tonsillectomy, no known issues of any sort, so no apparent need for a “consultation” – fingers crossed. My son’s health is top notch (cross country runner).

Jeanie, the LSA runs about $125 an hour, wet. I have no idea if that’s “good” or not.

Greg, it is indeed Sunrise Aviation. Any experience with them?

Thanks again all!

Joe
 
If its two you might think about buying an aircraft. Definitely motivates you to fly.
 
I flew out of Sunrise in the 70's before I moved to Idaho. I did all my aerobatic/TW instruction with them. Michael Church runs a great flight school with very good instructors. Make sure you do some aerobatic training right after you get your PPL. I built the Decathalon model that hangs in the lounge area. Don
 
register@teamandras.com said:
On the medical, I completed a draft 8500-8 application, and aside from a childhood tonsillectomy, no known issues of any sort, so no apparent need for a “consultation”
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"No Known" can be the crux of it.

When I was getting started, I was also "no known". But on advice of this crowd went to my doc to be sure. Glad I did, since it was found that I had become a Type 2 Diabetic and my sugars were in the very high range. This would have been a disqualifying condition and difficult to "unwind" and get the special issuance if the AME had been the one to find it.

Wanting to fly has saved my life. I followed the doctor's instructions and got on metformin and was well under the accepted range by the time I presented to the AME for the official exam.

The point is, you don't know what you don't know, and in the realm of the FAA, that attitude can ground you....permanently.

I would advise at least a "routine" checkup with your primary doctor, advising him that you're seeking a FAA medical certificate. Tell him that you're not concerned about anything, but want to be certain there isn't any surprises. Have him do all the routine items for your age, including blood workup for diabetes and cardio issues. During the physical, have him clear you of cardio and eye issues.

If you're clean, then great, proceed to the AME. But the point is, if something is found, you have the chance to address it BEFORE going official with the FAA. And it can be much less expensive.
 
I started training in the Sportstar and went to the 172. I'm more of a special case though, as I had a bunch of previous time in the 172 so it was what I was used to. Don't think you'll save that much money though....while the cost per hour is cheaper, the Sportstars are SLOOOWWWW compared to the 172. For the xc portion of your training, the cost difference per hour is easily made up because the 172 is 25-30 ktas faster. I only saw like 80-85 ktas in the sportstar and that was at rental power...

That said, it's a fun plane to fly and way more 'sporty' and sensitive than the 172. The 172 will feel like a truck compared to it. Beware the canopy though on the hot summer days...you'll be wishing for the high wing.

I assume Sunrise still incorporates the upset recovery/spin training into the PPL syllabus, so you'll get to do spins etc in the citabrias.....it's a blast!!
 
AggieMike88 said:
I would advise at least a "routine" checkup with your primary doctor, advising him that you're seeking a FAA medical certificate. Tell him that you're not concerned about anything, but want to be certain there isn't any surprises. Have him do all the routine items for your age, including blood workup for diabetes and cardio issues. During the physical, have him clear you of cardio and eye issues.
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Mike, thanks for the thought. My "no known" comment is based on some recent feedback. I just had my routine annual physical last month, with blood and urine work and an EKG. All good! Hope it stays that way for many more years. Joe
 
Mike5250 said:
If you fly the 172 you may be able to ride along for each others lessons and learn from each other. It may not be cost effective but it beats sitting in the FBO while you wait for each other to fly!
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That's a great idea. Unfortunately, the word is that my local FSDO (DuPage) has said that's a no-no, despite the fact that it is a common practice. As far as I'm aware, they have absolutely no regulatory basis for that, however, so all I could suggest would be to have the flight school check with the local FSDO on that.
 
Henning said:
You have what LSA for $20k? Please remember a CAR or FAR certified plane that qualifies to be flown by a Sport Pilot is not an LSA.
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FAR said:
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—
(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or
(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or feathering propeller system if a powered glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
Click to expand...

Mine is. By definition.

S-LSA and E-LSA are harder to find at the lower prices because the certification categories are pretty new. But they still cost less than half of a 172...
 
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