No Joy

How about:

'Looking...traffic not in sight'

I say it that way partly because it's just as clear, and party because I am not a trained combat pilot...
 
flyingron said:
The former is nonstandard and conveys no information to the controller. He assumes you are looking as soon as he tells you there is traffic. He only needs to know if you've spotted it.
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You've got to acknowledge the transmission, right? So I say, "18NS, looking". I guess you could say, "18NS, roger".
 
David7700 said:
You've got to acknowledge the transmission, right? So I say, "18NS, looking". I guess you could say, "18NS, roger".
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WHich is why Negative contact works. It means I acknowledge your traffic point out but I don't see it.
 
I think saying "looking" ties up the frequency unnecessarily. Why not just look, and if you don't see the traffic, then tell the controller. No need to get in a big hurry. I have never had a problem with using no joy and tally, or negative contact and traffic in sight. I hadn't thought too much about it until Azure mentioned that some of the controllers don't understand. If the communication isn't working, it does no good.
 
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flyingron said:
The former is nonstandard and conveys no information to the controller. He assumes you are looking as soon as he tells you there is traffic. He only needs to know if you've spotted it.
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I disagree...it conveys you've received his alert and you're looking specifically in the area he advised,
 
flyingron said:
WHich is why Negative contact works. It means I acknowledge your traffic point out but I don't see it.
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No, negative doesn't work. I'm talking about:

18NS, traffic at 12 o'clock, 5,500' two miles eastbound, report traffic in sight.

Me: 18NS, looking.

After I look:

Me: 18NS, negative contact.

I wouldn't say 'negative' right away. I'd look first.

I've never had an issue with the above. Sometimes I look for quote some time before I respond. Sometimes I get a 'traffic not a factor' before I see the traffic or can reply 'negative'.

So what I was saying above is that I acknowledge the initial transmission with something. Otherwise, they will not know I received the initial traffic call out.
 
Once I messed it up and said "negative traffic" :mad2:
 
Slightly off topic, but related: if tower says "your number two for landing behind a cirrus". Am I supposed to acknowledge by "looking for traffic". Or "cirrus in sight"?
 
In the interest of full disclosure:

Tally = I see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, Tally 2, right 3 low, engaged"

No Joy = I don't see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, No joy, north middle group, blow thru east"

Visual = I see the friendly. Ie "Iceman 2, Visual 2 F-16s right 4 o clock low"

Blind = I don't see the friendlies. ie "Iceman 2 blind on Maverick flgiht."

No contact / Negative contact implies comm / radar
 
RoperF15 said:
In the interest of full disclosure:



Tally = I see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, Tally 2, right 3 low, engaged"



No Joy = I don't see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, No joy, north middle group, blow thru east"



Visual = I see the friendly. Ie "Iceman 2, Visual 2 F-16s right 4 o clock low"



Blind = I don't see the friendlies. ie "Iceman 2 blind on Maverick flgiht."



No contact / Negative contact implies comm / radar
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So out of curiosity, what's the distinction between no joy and blind?

Never mind. Blind is for Friendlies.
 
Badger said:
Slightly off topic, but related: if tower says "your number two for landing behind a cirrus". Am I supposed to acknowledge by "looking for traffic". Or "cirrus in sight"?
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Depends. If they say "cleared to land runway XX, behind a cirrus" I usually just say cleared to land runway xx, cessna 12345. If they don't issue a landing clearance, I'll say "looking for traffic"
 
Badger said:
Slightly off topic, but related: if tower says "your number two for landing behind a cirrus". Am I supposed to acknowledge by "looking for traffic". Or "cirrus in sight"?
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Who does Number Two work for? :D


Sorry. Always think of that when I hear number two.
 
LDJones said:
I disagree...it conveys you've received his alert and you're looking specifically in the area he advised,
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The controller assumes you're looking. It conveys nothing to him. Unless you tell him you have visual contact with the traffic and you can maintain your own separation, NOTHING else you tell him means squat. I'm looking, but can't see him is the same as I don't give a crap what you see on your scope, I'm not looking out the window.
 
flyingron said:
The controller assumes you're looking. It conveys nothing to him. Unless you tell him you have visual contact with the traffic and you can maintain your own separation, NOTHING else you tell him means squat. I'm looking, but can't see him is the same as I don't give a crap what you see on your scope, I'm not looking out the window.
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It conveys I've heard his call out and I'm alerted to the potential traffic. It's certainly more meaningful than "No Joy" in just simple English terms.

It's worked fine for at least 30-some years for me.
 
LDJones said:
It conveys I've heard his call out and I'm alerted to the potential traffic. It's certainly more meaningful than "No Joy" in just simple English terms.

It's worked fine for at least 30-some years for me.
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But you've missed the point that he doesn't care. Either you see him and are maintaining your own separation or you don't. If he's in a situation where separation is mandated, he then decides what he does next. That decision is not based on whether you are looking or gave up trying to spot the aircraft.

The fact that you've jabbered on the frequency without conveying any useful information for 30 years doesn't make it effective.
 
I think if the controller's name is "Joy" then they may think you are being defiant.

"Let me know when you have traffic in sight"
"No, Joy"
"well screw you too then"
 
flyingron said:
But you've missed the point that he doesn't care. Either you see him and are maintaining your own separation or you don't. If he's in a situation where separation is mandated, he then decides what he does next. That decision is not based on whether you are looking or gave up trying to spot the aircraft.

The fact that you've jabbered on the frequency without conveying any useful information for 30 years doesn't make it effective.
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The "jabbering" is taking up no more airtime than any other acknowledgment of his call. Are you suggesting you ignore his call until you find it or some random time of not locating the traffic?? He should just assume you heard the call?

Radios are for communicating..."looking" seems to communicate what you're actually doing in response to his call. But, feel free to do whatever works for you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I think if the controller's name is "Joy" then they may think you are being defiant.

"Let me know when you have traffic in sight"
"No, Joy"
"well screw you too then"
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Instead of "Tally Ho" when traffic is spotted maybe it should be "Overjoyed!" :D
 
Everskyward said:
Exactly. People get too worked up over what others say on the radio.
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True...but can we all agree that saying "....any traffic in the area please advise" should subject one to tremendous scorn and ridicule??! :D
 
flyingron said:
NEGATIVE CONTACT tells him exactly the same thing in a clear, documented, standard way.
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Sure, however you said it "conveys nothing" to him but it does. Again, it doesn't really matter. ATC knows what "looking" means, and also "no joy".
 
flyingron said:
NEGATIVE CONTACT tells him exactly the same thing in a clear, documented, standard way.
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So five syllables instead of two conveys the message that much more clearly? Like, "I looked, saw nothing, I'm done" versus "I'm actively engaged in looking"?

As someone else pointed out, that phrase was used to indicate a failure to establish radio contact.

But I'm sure the controller will figure out either response.
 
Fine, I'm going to acknowledge all controller instructions with "R" (handy for talk like a pirate day). Not even a single syllabal. PC/G and the AIM be damned, I'm just gong to talk on the radio like I bloody weell see fit and who cares if it is properly understood by the other party.
 
flyingron said:
Fine, I'm going to acknowledge all controller instructions with "R" (handy for talk like a pirate day). Not even a single syllabal. PC/G and the AIM be damned, I'm just gong to talk on the radio like I bloody weell see fit and who cares if it is properly understood by the other party.
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I suspect the controllers will figure out what you're saying....but, for the record, it's "Rrrrr" and is officially one syllable! :D

Now, let's relax and start "looking" for a beer!
 
flyingron said:
The controller assumes you're looking. It conveys nothing to him. Unless you tell him you have visual contact with the traffic and you can maintain your own separation, NOTHING else you tell him means squat. I'm looking, but can't see him is the same as I don't give a crap what you see on your scope, I'm not looking out the window.
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I don't think your grasping the concept.

What tells the controller I've acknowledged his transmission?
 
flyingron said:
But you've missed the point that he doesn't care. Either you see him and are maintaining your own separation or you don't. If he's in a situation where separation is mandated, he then decides what he does next. That decision is not based on whether you are looking or gave up trying to spot the aircraft.



The fact that you've jabbered on the frequency without conveying any useful information for 30 years doesn't make it effective.
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No. The point is that saying "looking" is the same as saying "I heard you".

From what you've posted here, it sounds like you say "negative contact" every time a controller points out traffic to you. Why should the controllers bother pointing out traffic to you then?
 
RoperF15 said:
In the interest of full disclosure:

Tally = I see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, Tally 2, right 3 low, engaged"

No Joy = I don't see the bad / unknown guy. ie "Iceman 2, No joy, north middle group, blow thru east"

Visual = I see the friendly. Ie "Iceman 2, Visual 2 F-16s right 4 o clock low"

Blind = I don't see the friendlies. ie "Iceman 2 blind on Maverick flgiht."

No contact / Negative contact implies comm / radar
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This. Words mean things, and using the wrong ones makes you sound like a moron... especially of you know it's wrong.
 
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flyingron said:
The controller assumes you're looking. It conveys nothing to him. Unless you tell him you have visual contact with the traffic and you can maintain your own separation, NOTHING else you tell him means squat. I'm looking, but can't see him is the same as I don't give a crap what you see on your scope, I'm not looking out the window.
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How quickly do you respond with "No Joy" after the traffic is called to you? 2 seconds? 2 minutes? Never?
 
somorris said:
I think saying "looking" ties up the frequency unnecessarily. Why not just look, and if you don't see the traffic, then tell the controller. No need to get in a big hurry.
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Tried that and I usually got, "Callsign 21, center..." "Yes center, we are looking" so I stopped doing the "silence until I see him thing"
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Tried that and I usually got, "Callsign 21, center..." "Yes center, we are looking" so I stopped doing the "silence until I see him thing"
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Agree. I feel they want an immediate response when they talk to you.
Otherwise there are concerns about radio issues, etc.

"6PC traffic blah blah blah"
"looking for traffic"

And if I never see it, I will even ask
"so in so, what is the status on the reported traffic?"

So far no complaints about doing it this way.
 
I asked my brother(who is a center ATC) and the general consensus from people at his office is that most of the lingo questions us pilots have...they are much more laxed about. They really don't care how you say something as long as you get the message across. They have heard everything under the sun and if they have no clue what you are talking about, they will ask you. For the most part, it may be a small pet peeve(or they may not care), but they knew what message you were trying to get across and that is all that matters to them.

"No joy", "with you", "clearance on request ready to copy", "ready to go runway 31R", "climbing two point five for four" all prime examples.

Now flying overseas, saying stuff that is not ICAO standard can create much more confusion.
 
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They don't care about BS terminology that we make 4 pages about. They care about terminology that they have specific guidance on such as reading back hold short instructions that it seems no one reads back. "No joy" "looking" or "negative contact" aren't important. Unless they hear "traffic in sight," "visual" or even "tally," they're just going to keep issuing traffic until you see it. "Radar contact" doesn't count either.
 
I respond to their call with "looking". If I don't see traffic after a diligent scan I call back "negative contact"
 
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