No flap landings in a MEL

[ScottM]

Here is one I have never heard of before. I was flying right seat in an Apache yesterday. The PIC mentioned that as we were coming in to land that he had been taught that because asymetrical flap deployments could occur that his CFI-ME told him he should always land without flaps. That sounded like a bunch of hooey to me but not having a ME rating I don't know for sure.

It seems to me that any plane 'could' have asymetrical flap deployments but that alone is not a reason to never use flaps. They are there for a reason. Better to learn how to fly and handle an asymetric flap problem than to not use them.

Your thoughts?

 

[poadeleted3]

I agree with your reasoning. Using his (or his instructors) it could be argued that flying a twin means twice the chance of engine failure, so you'd better only use one engine!

 

[tonycondon]

my favorite, and the best, way to eliminate the possibility of an engine failure is to eliminate the engine
the logic the guy is using is flawed. just because something bad could result from an action is a silly reason not to do it, especially when its a really small could. If you pull the lever for the flaps and the airplane starts to roll, put the flaps back up! Im not sure about the apache, but in a lot of pipers, assymetrical flap extension is pretty unlikely because of the way the system works. the only way it could happen would be for the torque tube that runs the flaps to twist off, likely due to corrosion. If youve got enough corrosion in the wing to rust that through, you probably have bigger problems than flaps not deploying.

The only reason i ever used partial or no flaps in the Seneca was because we were flying at far forward CGs and it was very difficult to land in a nose up attitude (see ADs on seneca nose gears) Using partial flaps gave us a higher nose up attitude on final and helped the problem.

 

[wsuffa]

Scott, I'm with you. Use the flaps - most of the time. The important part of landings in MEL is maintaining appropriate speeds until you COMMIT to landing. So you'll make the approach at higher speeds than you might in a single.

Having said that, just like in a single, there may be occasions and circumstances where you want to make a no-flap landing. But I wouldn't plan on it every time, and I certainly wouldn't do so out of fear of assymetrical deployment.

 

[Arnold]

Here is one I have never heard of before. I was flying right seat in an Apache yesterday. The PIC mentioned that as we were coming in to land that he had been taught that because asymetrical flap deployments could occur that his CFI-ME told him he should always land without flaps. That sounded like a bunch of hooey to me but not having a ME rating I don't know for sure.

It seems to me that any plane 'could' have asymetrical flap deployments but that alone is not a reason to never use flaps. They are there for a reason. Better to learn how to fly and handle an asymetric flap problem than to not use them.

Your thoughts?

Your evaluation seems correct to me "hooey." I was a chief pilot at a part 135 outfit that operated Aztecs (a larger more powerful Apaceh, but still a PA-23) and we taught (with FAA blessings) that partial flap landings were an abnormal procedure.

Maybe the instructor knew something about this particular aircraft and did not wish to admit that the flaps were not working properly as that may have forced them to scrub the mission. If you can lower your touch down speed there is no reason I can think of to not do so.

 

[Earthroamer]

My opinion, the instructor is full of crap.

Brent
ATP, CFI-IA, MEI

 

[Ed Guthrie]

My opinion, the instructor is full of crap.

Brent
ATP, CFI-IA, MEI

No, Brent, don't sugar coat it--tell us what you really think.

BTW, I agree.

 

[ScottM]

My opinion, the instructor is full of crap.

Brent
ATP, CFI-IA, MEI

That was my initial impresion as well. It could also be that his flaps did not work and he was making up this nonesense to justify his 'unairworthy' aircraft.

I did want to double check in case there was some multi-flap procedure I ahd never heard of. Next time I fly with him I'll jab him a bit about that flap thing

 

[tonycondon]

if you think its possible he made it up to cover up flaps being inop, i would demand a preflight of the flaps before getting back in with him.

 

[ScottM]

if you think its possible he made it up to cover up flaps being inop, i would demand a preflight of the flaps before getting back in with him.

I don't know, there were a couple of INOP things all of which were minor. I know he has been putting a lot of money into the renovations and just got a couple of new flaps for it. Next time I fly I will watch his pre-flight very carefully. It is like anything that you do not take care of yourself, it is always suspect. Could be that the flaps work just fine and he was taught a dumb thing about using them.

 

[tonycondon]

i suspect you are right scott.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

if you think its possible he made it up to cover up flaps being inop, i would demand a preflight of the flaps before getting back in with him.

If I could prove a CFI made up such a story to cover inop equipment I'd fire the CFI and call the FSDO on the way out.

Clean the pool folks, don't leave the debris for some other poor, unsuspecting student to find.

 

[ScottM]

If I could prove a CFI made up such a story to cover inop equipment I'd fire the CFI and call the FSDO on the way out.

Clean the pool folks, don't leave the debris for some other poor, unsuspecting student to find.

He is not a CFI he said a CFI told him NOT to use the flaps for the reasons outlined in my first post.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Oh yea, the ole another guy who talked to a CFI told me this is how it should be done. Instant credibility to me---right!

Some folks (including me) do flap deployment in more than one stage so if there is an assymetrical deployment, they aren't full down. In the P-Baron, there are two pre-sets: approach and full. In the A-36, I jut time the flap deployment.

I can see an argument for not dumping full flaps all at once when low and slow.

Dave

 

[Everskyward]

Im not sure about the apache, but in a lot of pipers, assymetrical flap extension is pretty unlikely because of the way the system works.

The only asymmetrical flap problem I ever had was in a Piper, a Twin Comanche, on my first multiengine lesson. It was an asymmetrical retraction after an approach to landing stall recovery. I don't remember what happened mechanically since it was a long time ago. All I remember is that I was holding a lot of aileron and thinking, "I wonder if he failed an engine? It's supposed to be rudder, isn't it?"

I agree with the others in thinking this person's CFI is full of it.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

He is not a CFI he said a CFI told him NOT to use the flaps for the reasons outlined in my first post.

Ah, yes, I see. I lost track of CFIs past and present, and not so present.

Never mind.

 

[Tim]

Don't put the gear UP, it may not come down again!

 

[ScottM]

Don't put the gear UP, it may not come down again!

Excellent idea, that is why I never adjust the prop pitch and alway leave the cowl flaps open too.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

He is not a CFI he said a CFI told him NOT to use the flaps for the reasons outlined in my first post.

Flap lever set to desired setting.
Visually check right & left for accuracy and asymetry.

 

[Bill M.]

My opinion, the instructor is full of crap.

Brent
ATP, CFI-IA, MEI

I concur. I've never heard such a load of it.
Bill
ATP, CFI/IA, MEI