night landings

[DogDaddy]

A reminder to everyone...when you practice night landings (perhaps when you're doing your 3 t/o and landings for night currency) be sure to practice a few with no lights. Try with no landing light. Then try with no landing light but using the taxi light. Then try with the landing light but no runway lights. Try other scenarios. My instructor used to tell me, you never know when you will have to do this for real.
I just got home from a night flight. Landed at 11:30 pm. The lights at my airport (including the beacon) would not come on. Fog was forming, which reduced visiblity. I had no choice but to either land with no airport lights or land elsewhere. With fog closing in I really did not want to go elsewhere. I landed very cautiously, ready to go around if needed. Used a lot of runway but finally touched down gently. I am thankful that my instructor prepared me for this.
Being prepared helps keep the stress level down and gives you confidence.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Fog was forming, which reduced visiblity. I had no choice but to either land with no airport lights or land elsewhere. With fog closing in I really did not want to go elsewhere.

I agree with everything you say, but this statement bothers me.

 

[MachFly]

Just to make sure I understood you right, you recommend practicing night landing with all aircraft lights off and all airport lights off?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

T/G's do not count at night for currency. You need to do full stop or exit the runway and reenter..

 

[Fearless Tower]

T/G's do not count at night for currency. You need to do full stop or exit the runway and reenter..

Correct, but the OP did say T/O and landings..didn't see him say TnG.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree with everything you say, but this statement bothers me.

What third option did the OP have? As I told my mother on our first night flight together when the landing light bulb failed and she asked what I was going to do, I told her "Well, we don't have enough gas to stay up until morning, so we'll just have to land without it."

 

[Greg Bockelman]

What third option did the OP have? As I told my mother on our first night flight together when the landing light bulb failed and she asked what I was going to do, I told her "Well, we don't have enough gas to stay up until morning, so we'll just have to land without it."

He said he had two choices. Land at with no runway lights or land elsewhere. At 4:19 AM when I wrote that, I was thinking the safer choice might well have been land elsewhere. But I wasn't there, and I don't know what the experience level of the OP actually is. So apparently it is a judgement call.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just to make sure I understood you right, you recommend practicing night landing with all aircraft lights off and all airport lights off?

I hope not. I'm of the school where you need either the runway lights or the landing light, and without one of the two, I'm probably going somewhere the runway lights work. However, the OP was apparently concerned that the fog was moving in so fast, that a diversion would result in instrument conditions which he could not handle at all, and was faced with a choice of attempting a no-lights landing on a familiar runway or a potentially zero vis flight and landing somewhere else -- and I won't second-guess that decision.

 

[W. Stewart]

A reminder to everyone...when you practice night landings be sure to practice a few with no lights. Try with no landing light. Then try with no landing light but using the taxi light. Then try with the landing light but no runway lights. . .
Being prepared helps keep the stress level down and gives you confidence.

I know that a lot of people recommend practicing without landing lights, but with all the deer we have at our airport, I am NOT going to practice no-light landings. Heck, I avoid night landings altogether unless I am planning a trip on which I will have to land at night with passenger(s). Several planes at our airport have had extensive damage from hitting deer.

As for there being some difference in a "landing" light and a "taxi" light, in both my 177RG and my 210, the two lights were identical--both were GE 4509 bulbs, aimed identically.

For those who must fly a lot at night, and have to rely on the 4509 bulb (especially if cowl-mounted, which shortens and renders very unpredictable the lamp life), then I think that no-light practice is a good idea. A far better idea is to replace those lights with HID or LED lights. I now have XeVision HID lights on the 210, and they should outlive me, so I don't really worry about a no-light situation, and I can burn them all the time for safety.

Wells

 

[douglas393]

What third option did the OP have? As I told my mother on our first night flight together when the landing light bulb failed and she asked what I was going to do, I told her "Well, we don't have enough gas to stay up until morning, so we'll just have to land without it."

In my 182 I have a landing light and a taxi light. The landing light is almost like a low beam, whereas the taxi light is somewhat brighter(not a high beam ) and wider. Why not use the taxi light as an alternative if your landing light buld failed? They're not the same but a little bit of illumination on the subject is better than going in blind. Though I will say this if I had lost all lights, and the airport's lighting system was dead and it was foggy out, I think for many of the airports I fly into I think I would end up the subject of a very sad NTSB report.

 

[poadeleted20]

In my 182 I have a landing light and a taxi light. The landing light is almost like a low beam, whereas the taxi light is somewhat brighter(not a high beam ) and wider. Why not use the taxi light as an alternative if your landing light buld failed?

That my be true in your 182, but not in all light planes -- Grummans, for example, have only one. I'm assuming the OP's plane was in the latter group. If not, I would have to question his judgement for not doing what you suggest.

They're not the same but a little bit of illumination on the subject is better than going in blind. Though I will say this if I had lost all lights, and the airport's lighting system was dead and it was foggy out, I think for many of the airports I fly into I think I would end up the subject of a very sad NTSB report.

...hence, the OP's decision to land where he was with what he had before the fog got that bad -- a decision with which I will not take issue.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

...hence, the OP's decision to land where he was with what he had before the fog got that bad -- a decision with which I will not take issue.

I agree with that, too. 100%.

But I took the original post to mean he could have gone somewhere else with better weather and better lighting but chose to land at his home airport. If that is not the case, well, my bad for misinterpreting.

 

[DogDaddy]

I fly a 172.
In this case the fog was closing in; going elsewhere meant probably encountering worsening visibility. I could have called ATC for vectors to a well-lit towered field but worsening visibility could develop into IMC along the way. I am already experienced with various no-light landings so I knew I could land safely, although I'd have to be extra extra alert/careful. And that is why I urge others to be prepare. The decision was easy to make.
In 2008 my instructor had me do all these, including turning off all interior (panel) lights to simulate an electrical failure (can't operate flaps) and landing with no aircraft lights and no airport lights (electrical failure means no radio to turn on the airport lights) - at an unfamiliar field. (We also did maneuvers, stalls, and engine out - all at night.) Since 2008 I have practiced all these periodically. And we have deer too which adds another distraction to the equation. My point is, if we practice various scenarios, we'll be confident and able to manage them.

 

[MachFly]

In 2008 my instructor had me do all these, including turning off all interior (panel) lights to simulate an electrical failure (can't operate flaps) and landing with no aircraft lights and no airport lights (electrical failure means no radio to turn on the airport lights) - at an unfamiliar field. (We also did maneuvers, stalls, and engine out - all at night.)

So how do you even see the runway without airport and aircraft lights? Unless the airport is located in a large city or you fly in NVGs it all looks like a black hole.

I don't remember the 172's electrical system from the top of my head, but aren't your lights and radios located on a different bus? So unless you loose the alternator and drain the battery you should be left with something working.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I know that a lot of people recommend practicing without landing lights, but with all the deer we have at our airport, I am NOT going to practice no-light landings. Heck, I avoid night landings altogether unless I am planning a trip on which I will have to land at night with passenger(s). Several planes at our airport have had extensive damage from hitting deer.

As for there being some difference in a "landing" light and a "taxi" light, in both my 177RG and my 210, the two lights were identical--both were GE 4509 bulbs, aimed identically.

For those who must fly a lot at night, and have to rely on the 4509 bulb (especially if cowl-mounted, which shortens and renders very unpredictable the lamp life), then I think that no-light practice is a good idea. A far better idea is to replace those lights with HID or LED lights. I now have XeVision HID lights on the 210, and they should outlive me, so I don't really worry about a no-light situation, and I can burn them all the time for safety.

Wells

We have had a few years in a row where there were record numbers of high school kids getting killed running off the roads to avoid deer. So we often buzz the runway at about 20-30' above it to clear it with or without.

 

[DogDaddy]

MachFly, you'd be surprised, once your eyes adjust to the darkness, how much you can see in the dark although your depth perception is altered.,There is moonlight, and lights from buildings such as hangars. In the case I mentioned it was very dark there. Estimated engine RPMs by the sound and by the descent rate (sight and feel). With the moonlight and peripheral vision I knew when I was at tree-top level and at roof-top level. Flared and floated quite a bit. Saw actual runway surface right about time to flare.
Last night I didn't see the runway surface till I was probably 40 feet AGL. In both cases there was still enough time to go around if needed. The plane will perform exactly the same whether it's day or night. If you're hesitant about practicing these, do it with an instuctor. Yes it'll cost $ but it might save your life.
Today I was telling a CFI about all these things my instructor put me through in 2008. He replied, 'If you fly long enough, you WILL encounter every one of those situations.'

 

[DogDaddy]

And remember, at night and in other types of reduced visibility, we tend to fly lower and carry more engine power. In other words, we will be lower than we think we are on base and final and will be faster on final than we think we are. The tendency is to flare late (because we want to see the runway better) and possibly hit the nosewheel on the runway. So you want to flare where you feel like you're about 6 ft too high to flare. You'll feel the mains touch down when you believe you are about 6 ft above the runway.

 

[MachFly]

MachFly, you'd be surprised, once your eyes adjust to the darkness, how much you can see in the dark although your depth perception is altered.,There is moonlight, and lights from buildings such as hangars. In the case I mentioned it was very dark there. Estimated engine RPMs by the sound and by the descent rate (sight and feel). With the moonlight and peripheral vision I knew when I was at tree-top level and at roof-top level. Flared and floated quite a bit. Saw actual runway surface right about time to flare.
Last night I didn't see the runway surface till I was probably 40 feet AGL. In both cases there was still enough time to go around if needed. The plane will perform exactly the same whether it's day or night. If you're hesitant about practicing these, do it with an instuctor. Yes it'll cost $ but it might save your life.
Today I was telling a CFI about all these things my instructor put me through in 2008. He replied, 'If you fly long enough, you WILL encounter every one of those situations.'

The moon is not out there every single day, and even when it is nice and bright you can have cloud cover blocking it. Regarding the city and the hangar lights, unless you're landing in a large airport in a large city those lights will either not be there or not do any good.

How do you think night CFITs happen? If you're eyes really could adjust perfectly to night we'd never be hitting mountains.

Now I agree, if the airport looses all it's lights and so does your aircraft, and you happened to not have any fuel to fly anywhere else, you will hopefully be able to land it safely. But what's the point of training for it? What can you learn? Practicing landings with no lights is equally as dangerous and the real thing, you're eyes will adjust as best as they can and if there is enough light you will line up to the runway and land, hopefully you'll flare in time and maybe there won't be a deer on the runway. It's like practicing getting shot, yeah you'll know what it will be like but it's equally as dangerous and the real thing.

Now what are the odds of it happening? I don't remember 172s electrical system from the top of my head, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're lights and radios should be on a different bus, so that makes most of the system redundant. Then we have the master switch, that may or may not be redundant depending on the type of switch you have. If the master switch is not redundant then you will have only two wires going though it, which means in case of an electrical failure you should be able to just rip it out and cross the two wires. Now we get to the battery and the alternator, if you loose the battery you still have the alternator, if you loose the alternator you will have the battery in which case you will either need to hurry up to the nearest airport or shut down all electrical equipment in order to have the battery for the landing.

Regarding practicing it with an instructor. I'm sorry but instructors are not super human, if I can't see **** at night, the instructor won't either.

 

[Jaybird180]

In my 182 I have a landing light and a taxi light. The landing light is almost like a low beam, whereas the taxi light is somewhat brighter(not a high beam ) and wider. Why not use the taxi light as an alternative if your landing light buld failed? They're not the same but a little bit of illumination on the subject is better than going in blind. Though I will say this if I had lost all lights, and the airport's lighting system was dead and it was foggy out, I think for many of the airports I fly into I think I would end up the subject of a very sad NTSB report.

I use and feel I need both for all ground operations.

 

[DogDaddy]

I agree that both lights (landing and taxi) are needed. But equipment failures do happen. If during preflight you find a bulb burnt out, you can choose to cancel the flight. (Although I have knowingly departed for at least 1 solo night flight with no landing light.) But if equipment fails inflight, it's no longer a matter of what you need or prefer, but of what you have.
Regarding my suggestion of practicing with an instructor: It's true that if you can't see then neither can he. But he can coach you on when to flare, etc. Find an instructor who has experience with this. (My instructor's full-time job involves flying planes and helicopters at night.)
If you ever have to make an off-field landing at night there might not be any lights on the ground at all.

 

[flyingron]

Just to make sure I understood you right, you recommend practicing night landing with all aircraft lights off and all airport lights off?

Just the landing light...turning the position and anti-collision lights would be foolhardy as well as illegal.

 

[DogDaddy]

Just to make sure I understood you right, you recommend practicing night landing with all aircraft lights off and all airport lights off?

Good question. By "all" aircraft lights I meant Taxi and Landing lights off. As flyingron mentioned, the position and anti-collision lights must remain on.
And speaking of these other lights, if you ever do have to land without a landing light, taxi light, and no airport lights, the anti-collision lights do provide a little bit of help although very very late in the process. You could descend and float along and eventually the strobes will flash some light on the runway surface, and they also might flash light on the runway light fixtures, which can help you judge your height above the surface.

 

[steingar]

Landed a couple times with burnt out landing lights and didn't much notice the difference, until I started taxiing that is. Need to do my own night currency soon.

 

[MachFly]

I agree that both lights (landing and taxi) are needed. But equipment failures do happen. If during preflight you find a bulb burnt out, you can choose to cancel the flight. (Although I have knowingly departed for at least 1 solo night flight with no landing light.) But if equipment fails inflight, it's no longer a matter of what you need or prefer, but of what you have.

The odds that you will lose all your lights and won't have any airport lights are extremely low, next to 0.
I'd say that the odds that I will loose both engines are higher.

Regarding my suggestion of practicing with an instructor: It's true that if you can't see then neither can he. But he can coach you on when to flare, etc. Find an instructor who has experience with this. (My instructor's full-time job involves flying planes and helicopters at night.)
If you ever have to make an off-field landing at night there might not be any lights on the ground at all.

The only time I'll trust an instructor in such situation is if he's wearing NVGs and was properly trained in flying with them.
In this case experience does not matter, you are limited by human eye's physical capabilities.


I'm not saying all of this because I'm afraid to do it, I'm saying this because I've done it.

 

[danhagan]

Today I was telling a CFI about all these things my instructor put me through in 2008. He replied, 'If you fly long enough, you WILL encounter every one of those situations.'

True statement, but hopefully not all at the same time.
My home drome lights are full time medium intensity. Only thing I had similar was the runway lights out, but taxiway lights working on a night flight ... didn't need any of it as it was a full unobstructed moon. Lost electrical a few months ago (alternator bracket broke) but had full runway lights. I fly with a ton of fuel, so picking an alternate a state a way is even an option if needed. Last note: hand helds don't transmit very well - tried turning PCL lights on at another field and had to get practically on top of it to bring them up ... I still carry it though.

 

[Jeanie]

On the first night flight for one of my students the runway lights wouldn't come on for the rwy. We needed but the one that is perpendicular, makes a T worked. So, the student said what are we gonna do? Answer: land anyway... Have to land sometime and it will be good practice and we know where the other is so we can use it for spacing. This was in ft. Stockton where when it's dark it's very dark. It was interesting for me to work it out with him. I had never landed onto an unlit runway but I had enough experience etc. that we did fine and we just kept going with several landings. Then the lights came on and it was like magic.